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Bent over too much or too little

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Category: Golf Instruction
Forum Name: One Plane Swing Theory and Help
Forum Discription: Post questions and thoughts and get help with your one plane swing.
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Topic: Bent over too much or too little
Posted By: Markster
Subject: Bent over too much or too little
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 6:43pm

Hello,

I am an assistant golf professional.  I am going from a mixed swing to one plane.  My problem is in my set up.  I'm 5'9 ish to 5 '10.  How much should I bend over? I have to book and I know about the 48" zone.  Just by myself its hard to tell how much I'm bent over.  What do you feel would be the fault if I am bent over too much?  I will try to post a pic of my set up in the future




Replies:
Posted By: Markster
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 8:16pm


Posted By: CrackShot
Date Posted: 29 May 2005 at 8:53pm
Say Markster in Hardy's book there is a drill that covers the issue of spine angle! Try it out & it should resolve any issues with your stance and set up.....cheers!


Posted By: Mantixx
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 8:19pm
From what I understand, the shorter you are the less you have to worry
about how far to bend over. Your setup looks good to me, but honestly,
what the heck do I know.


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 9:32pm

I'm almost 6'1"/185 lbs and I just have the hardest time bending over to 45 degrees. It doesn't feel natural and I can't turn through the ball very well. So I'm probably fairly upright for 1PS but it seems to work. I wonder if being more upright means it's easier to lose spine angle?

Lefty  



Posted By: CrackShot
Date Posted: 30 May 2005 at 9:43pm
I'M 6'1 & around 200lbs and I run into issues from time to time with the set up for the one plane. Some keys I use in my set up are to make sure my hands are slightly inside of my chin/ shoulders out past my toes/ weight nice and centered/ the arms are out and away from the body to give them room to swing through. I will agree that the one plane seems to be a bit more difficult as far as set up for the taller player is concerned.


Posted By: wannabe
Date Posted: 31 May 2005 at 3:54am
What about Vijay? He must be a good example for taller players, check him out on the home page.

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Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 31 May 2005 at 11:23am
Hardy's book describes the optimum position.

I think your bent over position is good.  It is optimum when a line drawn from the front of the shoulders is just in front of the toes of your feet. Secondly, one should lean forward until one feels that one is going to fall over forwards onto one's face, and then back off just a bit.  It should result in the same position.

Jeff.


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 31 May 2005 at 12:12pm

I found this post by Jim Hardy on his website forum which might be of interest in terms of whether you can have an upright posture and still be a one-planer.

Lefty

 

"John,
I appreciate your bringing up the issue of Ernie Els and the one-plane swing. I want to make two points about this. First is that many people think that you cannot have an upright swing and be a one-planer. That is not the case. Tall people must bend over at address (or during the swing) significantly more than short golfers, in order to turn thier shoulders into what I call the "zone" (middle of the zone is 24" outside the ball). Ernie is going to need to bend over much more than Hogan, Ian Woosnam or Gary Player. When you bend over a great deal, the upper torso and shoulders are now turning on a much more upright plane. If the arms swing up from address onto somewhat that same torso and shoulder plane then the swing is a one-plane swing, but fairly upright. Tall golfers making one-plane swings are much more upright than short golfers. Snead was much more upright than Hogan. Els (as a one-planer) was much more upright than is Charles Warren or Zack Johnson.

The second point is that at the time of writing the book (November 2003-May 2004) Ernie was and had always been a one-planer. For most of his carrer he had even had a laid off club at the top. Both he and Michelle Wie were nearly identical in their swings. David Leadbetter has been in the process of changing them both to two-planers by having them keep their arms more in front of them and higher than the shoulder plane at the top. I first observed this at the USGA Women's National Amateur last summer where I was caddying for my wife in the tournament. David had Michelle practicing a drill where she keeps her arms well in front of he body and lifts them up and then down into a very upright swinging motion, certainly more upright than her shoulder turn. It appears that Ernie is attempting the same thing. I do not know whether either or both players will continue with this or not. We shall see in the future if they do stay with it and if they can play as well from two-planes as they did as one-planers. But in conclusion, you are correct about Ernie. He used to be a one-planer, and was when I wrote the book. Unfortunately by the time the book was published and released changes had occurred. Thank you for bringing up this important point.
JH"

 



Posted By: will573
Date Posted: 01 June 2005 at 3:33am
I think you are too far for your height.Just my opinion.Try different spine angles. I'm 5-10 and don't have to bend over any extreme amount. I tried the angle you show and had little success.Good luck.


Posted By: azpaz
Date Posted: 08 June 2005 at 1:56am
I believe Hardy said 30-45 degrees.

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azpaz


Posted By: azpaz
Date Posted: 08 June 2005 at 1:58am
I believe your hands should be under your chin.

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azpaz


Posted By: platinum
Date Posted: 08 June 2005 at 5:17pm

A newbie's 2 cents, just from testing it out at home with a 6-iron last night:  spine angle is very important.  Bent over just a bit too much, and my club hits the ground too hard.  Bent over too little, and my club never gets down to the ball, even when my club starts from the ground at address.  I'm a weak guy using a no-name steel shaft iron, so the club feels heavy for me and you can bet there's not much muscling I can do to the club when it swings.

So I think the spine angle has to be different for each club, and there's only one angle for each club that would deliver it naturally back at the ball give you the "swoosh" on the grass (at least with an iron).  A few test swings before hitting should let you know how much to bend over.



Posted By: jonesterp
Date Posted: 08 June 2005 at 5:47pm
I have been noticing this too.

I am barely, and I mean barely 5'8" in stocking feet, which means that I really dont bend over much at all. If I bend over to much I am just hacking at the deck and if I stand straight up I top the ball.

With driver, I am bent over just enough to feel athletic. With a 3-iron I am have maybe a 10-15 degree bend. With a sand wedge, maybe 25 degrees. I have found that my contact with the ball is entirely dependent on my proper spine angle at set up as well as keeping my hips at proper height thru the swing. It is a nice thing to be able to concentrate on these things because you can't overdo them during the swing like you can with shoulder turn.r  Now getting the club face square is a matter of turning thru and releasing,  a whole other battle for sure, but it is a process I am enjoying learning.

There is such a subtle difference between say a 4 iron and a 6 iron. It will take a long time to learn the proper spine angles for all clubs.  I feel like I am back in the Marine Corps and I am learning to dial in the dope on my rifle for distances. Each club has its own "dope" and I have to dial it in at set up.




Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:44am
Is the Hogan Idea of sitting on a spectator chair(or barstool) appropriate for the Hardy method?

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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 7:22am
Originally posted by will573

I think you are too far for your height.Just my opinion.Try different spine angles. I'm 5-10 and don't have to bend over any extreme amount. I tried the angle you show and had little success.Good luck.


I think Markster is bent over perfectly for the 1PS.  He looks very balanced and athletic in that picture.  If he turns his shoulders 90 degrees to that spine angle and arrives at the top with his left arm connected to his left pectoral and on the plane of his shoulder turn, he'll be in perfect position.  He should stop obsessing about it and just let it happen.



Posted By: Aragorn
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by Lefty

I found this post by Jim Hardy on his website forum which might be of interest in terms of whether you can have an upright posture and still be a one-planer.

Lefty

 

"John,
I appreciate your bringing up the issue of Ernie Els and the one-plane swing. I want to make two points about this. First is that many people think that you cannot have an upright swing and be a one-planer. That is not the case. Tall people must bend over at address (or during the swing) significantly more than short golfers, in order to turn thier shoulders into what I call the "zone" (middle of the zone is 24" outside the ball). Ernie is going to need to bend over much more than Hogan, Ian Woosnam or Gary Player. When you bend over a great deal, the upper torso and shoulders are now turning on a much more upright plane. If the arms swing up from address onto somewhat that same torso and shoulder plane then the swing is a one-plane swing, but fairly upright. Tall golfers making one-plane swings are much more upright than short golfers. Snead was much more upright than Hogan. Els (as a one-planer) was much more upright than is Charles Warren or Zack Johnson.

JH"

 


Oneplaner, I enjoy your posts. I have to say this business of taller folk bending over more does not make 100% sense to me. Would you mind explaining to me the logic of such a stance for a "tall" person? I am about 6' 00".  Thanks.




Posted By: ecnerwal
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by platinum

A newbie's 2 cents, just from testing it out at home with a 6-iron last night:  spine angle is very important.  Bent over just a bit too much, and my club hits the ground too hard.  Bent over too little, and my club never gets down to the ball, even when my club starts from the ground at address.  I'm a weak guy using a no-name steel shaft iron, so the club feels heavy for me and you can bet there's not much muscling I can do to the club when it swings.

So I think the spine angle has to be different for each club, and there's only one angle for each club that would deliver it naturally back at the ball give you the "swoosh" on the grass (at least with an iron).  A few test swings before hitting should let you know how much to bend over.

No way.  How far you bend is dependent on how far you are standing away from the ball.  If you address the ball with the clubhead at the impact position, it should return there.  If it doesn't, it is not because you picked the wrong spine angle--it's because you most likely CHANGED that spine angle at some point in the swing . 



Posted By: tinkers
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:20pm
I think being upright works best for me. When I bend over as hardy sugests, I can't keep my balance or make a full turn.


Posted By: dlovullo
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 2:34pm

I stand with my club out horizontal and bring the club down by bending from the hips till the club hits the ground.The angle between my arms and wrists doesn't chnge.I have my knees flexed before I do this. If you do this you will see that each club will have a different posture and distance from the ball. I don't know how to do this automatically.

 

Dave

 



Posted By: fjjra
Date Posted: 07 July 2005 at 4:52pm
Seem a little to bent over to me, and uncomfortable.


Posted By: ecnerwal
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 12:57am
Originally posted by tinkers

I think being upright works best for me. When I bend over as hardy sugests, I can't keep my balance or make a full turn.


And from this upright position, do you feel you swing the club on the same plane as the shoulders? 


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 1:29am
It is surely impossible to perform a true 1PS if one is only bent over 10-15 degrees because one needs to rotate the shoulders at 90 degrees to the spine. The clubface will surely not be at the ball position under those conditions but far above the ball in both the BS and DS. I don't think a precise bent-over angle needs to be specified. It is derived by experience when one learns that the spine must rotate at 90 degrees to the spine in both the BS and DS. The i) length of one's arms and ii) specific club length and iii) distance from the ball will then determine the needed bent-over angle.

Jeff.


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 1:35am
I meant the "shoulders" must rotate at 90 degrees in the last sentence of my previous message, and not the "spine". I think that Markster's position is excellent because if he he rotates his shoulders at right angles to his bent-over spine, then a line drawn across his shoulders will point about 1-2' beyond the ball (see Hardy's inch-by-inch drill). 

Jeff.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Aragorn

[QUOTE=Lefty]
Oneplaner, I enjoy your posts. I have to say this business of taller folk bending over more does not make 100% sense to me. Would you mind explaining to me the logic of such a stance for a "tall" person? I am about 6' 00".  Thanks.




Aragorn,

The shoulders will always tend to rotate naturally, comfortably, and consistently at 90 degrees to the spine.  You can force them to turn on a shallower or steeper angle to the spine, but I guarantee you can't do it consistently. 

That being the case, you want to establish a spine angle at address that puts you in a comfortable position to swing your left arm across your chest on that 90 degree shoulder plane.  You are then in position to drive the passive arms through the ball by turning the upper torso to the left, which is the essence of the one plane swing. 

How much spine angle one needs is moot.  Hardy says 35-45 degrees of tilt out toward the ball.  He also says that an extended line across the shoulders at the top should fall within a 48" zone outward from the ball.  That's quite a range of tolerance, but it makes sense in light of all the variables of body structure (height, length of arms, width of shoulders, etc.) that are involved. 

It comes down to being an individual thing.  You must experiment to find the right degree of spine tilt for your body structure.  Above all, it must feel comfortable, balanced, and repeatable, and it must put your left arm in position at the top to follow the shoulders as they turn to the left on the downswing. 

I think Hardy's 35-45 degrees of tilt is too much for many people, especially those who are shorter than, say, 6 feet.  I'm just shy of 5'11'.  By experimentation, I've found that 35-45 degrees is too much for me.  I don't feel balanced if I tilt my spine that much.  I would guess that my spine tilt is closer to 25-30 degrees, and I have no idea where a line across my shoulders would point outside the ball.  Still, I can make a good one plane swing at that degree of tilt.  The main thing is that you do need some spine tilt to accomodate the natural tendency of your shoulders to rotate at 90 degrees to your spine.  Find the point at which you feel balanced while swinging your arms on the same plane as your shoulder turn.


Posted By: Aragorn
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 10:28am
Originally posted by One Planer

Originally posted by Aragorn

[QUOTE=Lefty]
Oneplaner, I enjoy your posts. I have to say this business of taller folk bending over more does not make 100% sense to me. Would you mind explaining to me the logic of such a stance for a "tall" person? I am about 6' 00".  Thanks.




Aragorn,

The shoulders will always tend to rotate naturally, comfortably, and consistently at 90 degrees to the spine.  You can force them to turn on a shallower or steeper angle to the spine, but I guarantee you can't do it consistently. 

That being the case, you want to establish a spine angle at address that puts you in a comfortable position to swing your left arm across your chest on that 90 degree shoulder plane.  You are then in position to drive the passive arms through the ball by turning the upper torso to the left, which is the essence of the one plane swing. 



Ah yes. Thanks One Planer.  Good clarification!

I have Hardy's book.  While he throws a lot of words around in places, it seems to me it is not too well written in other parts. Since he appears to be an honest, innovative person, perhaps he does not want to appear dogmatic and realizes that everybody's athletic ability and physical aptitudes are different, and he leaves wiggle room for people to slightly modify a swing to their comfort level. I am still mad at him though for saying that strong athletic people are likely to derive more benefit from the one plane swing, as opposed to the two-plane one.


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 5:13pm
One planar -- you state that you don't know where a line across your shoulders point. I find that it is easy to get an impression. Theoretically, that line should point to towards a point that is at knee level (at ball position -- see Hardy's inch-by-inch drill). I marked a point on the wall that is at my knee height and then distanced myself from the wall such that the wall-floor intersection would be were the ball resides. Then I turned my shoulders so that a line across my shoulders points at a mark on the wall that is roughly at knee height. That works out to a 90 degree rotation of the shoulders around the flexed spine.

Jeff.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 08 July 2005 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by JeffMann

One planar -- you state that you don't know where a line across your shoulders point. I find that it is easy to get an impression. Theoretically, that line should point to towards a point that is at knee level (at ball position -- see Hardy's inch-by-inch drill). I marked a point on the wall that is at my knee height and then distanced myself from the wall such that the wall-floor intersection would be were the ball resides. Then I turned my shoulders so that a line across my shoulders points at a mark on the wall that is roughly at knee height. That works out to a 90 degree rotation of the shoulders around the flexed spine.

Jeff.


iInteresting idea, Jeff.  I'll try that.  Thanks for the suggestion. 



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