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Keeping the weight on the left side?

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Topic: Keeping the weight on the left side?
Posted By: larson92
Subject: Keeping the weight on the left side?
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 5:56pm
Chuck says in his book that unless you are a single-digit handicap, he recommends starting with and then keeping the weight on your left side during the swing.
 
My question is, how--especially how to keep the weight left and still keep the head behind the ball?  The only way I seem to manage it is by lifting up my right heel a tiny bit (at address).
 
I've tried the one-legged drill, but I either lose my balance or else leave my right foot in about the same place on the ground (but my right hips are tugging on it).
 
Any ideas? 



Replies:
Posted By: Dariusz J.
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by larson92

Chuck says in his book that unless you are a single-digit handicap, he recommends starting with and then keeping the weight on your left side during the swing.
 
My question is, how?  The only way I seem to manage it is by lifting up my right heel a tiny bit (at address).
 
I've tried the one-legged drill, but I either lose my balance or else leave my right foot in about the same place on the ground (but my right hips are tugging on it).
 
Any ideas? 
 
 
Funny enough...it's a copy of my another post of today :
 
try a drill with a thick object placed under the outside part of your rear foot (as e.g. a piece of plywood or even a golf ball). It would help you to swing with your right foot on the inner edge during backswing.
 
The whole idea is to make it difficult to put the majority of the weight on rear foot because it feels not natural or simply not comfortable. Similar goal you will achieve when you keep the rear leg knee bent inwards during downswing.
 
Cheers


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Dariusz
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Current EGA HCP: 8.7
http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3223&PN=1 - What's In My Bag


Posted By: Ray'nBC
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 7:45pm
Larson,
Are you still setting up like your earlier posting showed?
That ball position would be way too far back -- it looks like it needs at least 5'' to get in line with your left ear/shirt logo area.  Trying to get your head behind the ball from where you are in the pictures would require either a significant rightward tilt or a large weight shift to the back foot and then staying there (!) to keep the head back.  The ball probably shouldn't be back near the centre of your stance until you're down to the wedges; and then your narrower stance will make it easier to keep weight centre/left during the swing.


Posted By: flyfishin
Date Posted: 05 December 2007 at 11:23pm
I'm not a big fan of keeping your weight on your front foot at all times.  I think it can tend to lead to a reverse weight shift if you aren't careful.  Look at the drills in the Vault and do the rotation drill in front of a mirror.  Your focus is on keeping your spine centered during the swing with that drill. Your don't consciously focus on weight shift but it improves because you are working on staying centered.


Posted By: Swing_King
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 4:28am
I think the feeling of keeping the weight on the front foot helps you stay centered more easily when making a transition from a weight shift/TP swing pattern to a rotary swing.

Of course the easiest way to ingrain this action is to practice the one legged drill, innit!


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12Hcp
History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
- Abba Eban


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 8:26am
This from John Toepel at Concept Golf:
 
Legs vs. Arms

How do baseball pitchers create 95-mile-per-hour pitches that hit a spot the size of a grapefruit? They use the strongest part of their body, the legs, to move the body. More specifically, they use their back leg (the one on the pitching rubber). By pushing with this leg, they create the quick movement in their body that causes the arm to be moved with great enough speed to throw the ball at 95 miles-per-hour and deliver the ball to the center of the catcher's glove.

Just as the pitcher uses his back leg to throw 95 mile-per-hour pitches to a very small target, you want to use your back leg to create long, accurate shots. It is your source of consistent, effortless power.

Most golfers think their source of power is those little arms. Some of you may not have small arms but they are still smaller and weaker than your legs, aren't they? You need to use your legs so that you can have an effective swing like all the good players. A nice by-product of using your legs is that you will be as fresh on the back nine as on the front nine. Your legs make your swing powerful and help you hit the ball consistently far. Let's examine how this works.

Using your Legs

To start the swing, move your entire body weight to the right foot quickly enough to cause the arms to be flung away. When you are positioned with your weight on the front inside part of your right foot, you need to keep your leg flexed just as it was at address. At the top of the backswing your right knee should point at the ball and should be flexed. This will keep your weight and pressure on your big toe and ball of your right foot. Now your right foot should be in position to push your body forward at any moment during the backswing.

The temptation is to allow your weight to stay on the left foot when you are trying to keep your right knee pointed at the ball during the backswing. You need to make sure your weight actually goes to your right foot when you are trying to keep the pressure on the front inside part of your right foot. The top of the backswing is the same position you are in when you wind up to throw a ball. In fact, it's a good idea to throw a ball or two just to get the idea of the position you are going to be in. Can you imagine trying to throw a ball if you let your weight stay on your left foot or get to the outside heel of your right foot? Try it! It's not possible to have any strength or power with your weight out of position.

If your right leg straightens during the backswing, it is useless. Test this idea by straightening your legs and jumping. Don't bend them, just jump with straight legs. Doesn't work at all, does it? That's why you want your right leg flexed at the top of the backswing. As you push against the ground with your big toe and ball of your right foot, your leg straightens out and pushes your body forward with great speed and power.

Your right leg creates the quickness in your body that makes your arms move with real speed. The assumption here is that you are following the relaxation principle and your shoulders are limp at the top of your back swing. All of these principles are interdependent and rely on each other for success. If your arms are working to create the downswing your right leg won't be able to do its job. Only if your shoulders are relaxed can your right leg do its work and create the speed and consistency you want. Either your arms work or your legs work, but your legs and arms can't both work at the same time. When your legs do the work and your arms are relaxed followers, you will hit a lot of very good shots.


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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 9:33am
larson, you can shift your hips/weight over your left foot and keep your head back. It's ok to have a slight amount of spine tilt away from the target, you just don't want a lot. You also don't need to make such an effort to put so much weight on your left side that your whole body moves, think of it as applying pressure to the ground with your left leg rather than sitting on it, and that will give you a more balanced and athletic address.
 
As for using the legs, absolutely, but you have to be careful. Many golfers I have taught tend to overdrive with their legs because they use them incorrectly and they end up coming too far from the inside and hit hooks and blocks. The simple way for the average golfer is to keep all the angles constant (spine, top of head in place, tush line, etc.) and the "get left" during the transition. In order to assertively apply force in the golf swing, the ground must be used for leverage and there is no other way to do that in the golf swing without using the legs.
 
To give you an idea of how this works in top golfers, take Michelle Wie. I walked around with Duncan Smith one round at Q-School last week who is Henrik Bjornstad's coach and works at the Leadbetter Academy. He told me that when Michelle Wie first started working with Leadbetter, she was put on their big pressure plate machine that measures weight distribution during the swing. At the top of Michelle's swing she had 160% of her weight on her left leg. Think about that, she not only has "gotten left" but is applying force. You can't apply force with a straight left leg, it must be bent, just like doing a squat or leg press, and that's why you see many of the most powerful ball strikers head dip during the transition. Observe:
 
 
 
Ok, in the two photos above, Tiger Woods and I are hitting pitching wedges so you can compare apples to apples. Now first, keep in mind that Tiger and I are better golfers who have learned to use a lot of things correctly in the golf swing over years and years of hard work (I spent 5 hours on the range yesterday working on "Hitter" technique). Therefore, it must be understood that these are very advanced techniques that are difficult to employ by the average golfer and take a lot of time to learn, so if you're not a single digit handicap, you should gracefully bow out of the conversation unless you enjoy studying technical aspects of the swing.
 
Note the two red lines at the top of our heads that represent where our heads start at address. In the second set of photos, it's very clear to see that our heads have dropped significantly below that line. Why does this happen? Simple, during the downswing, Tiger and I are both "squatting", or bending our legs to use the ground for leverage and rotate the hips out of the way. During the transition, we "weigh" more as we are literally pressing into the ground with our legs. This can't happen if our legs are straight, so we must increase the bend in them we had at the top of the swing. This is a VERY dynamic position that requires a great deal of athleticism to perform correctly. This is why in the Rotary Swing model and swing sequences you have seen for years, my head stays perfectly in place. That is MUCH easier to perform and makes the swing significantly simpler to produce consistent and solid contact.
 
Now you might wonder about power then, if using your legs equals power, how do I hit it as far as a swinger vs a hitter? Simple. The main difference in the two swings is body speed. The Swinger can rotate as fast as he desires to hit the ball as hard as he wants and keep all the angles constant. The hitter can NOT rotate as fast as he wants and so has to use other things for power and leverage like the ground. Both can use the ground, but the swinger's pattern is simpler to execute.
 
-cq


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 10:24am
Legs?  Last week I sat on a barstool and touched 100mph first practice session.  No legs.  Zach Johnson is 108mph standing up.  Hmmmmmm.  Debatable.

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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 10:28am
Hayes, perhaps it's too early in the morning for me still, but I have no idea what you just said!

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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: signboy
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 10:50am
Chuck,

This might be a dumb question but when does the left leg straighten; before or after impact.  It has been talked about that Tiger does this less aggressively then in previous years. Does the left leg straighten at different times for the hitter/swinger. It just seems like it straightens too late for me, (after impact resulting in a loss of potential leverage?).  Am I worrying about something that is minor or does it make a significant difference in ball striking.


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 11:06am
Chuck,
I arise at 4:50am, so I am hours ahead of you.
 
I sat on a 30" barstool and swung a driver several times and hit 100mph using basically all arms and upper torso.  While sitting, the lower body is very quiet, ala the Rotary Hitter.  After being an all out Rotary Swinger for 2 1/2 years, I am re-training my swing to quiet the lower body and yet generate CHS.  Swinging on the barstool does that well. 


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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 11:24am
I haven't seen 4:50 am since my mountaineering days. Waking up to start climbing for 12 hours when it's 10 below outside was not something I ever considered fun, so I hope to never see those numbers on my watch again!
 
Quieting the lower body is ideal for a swinger, it gives support for the upper torso to rotate aggressively. The hitter needs to use the legs for power, ala Tiger.


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 11:47am
Armspeed.

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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 12:01pm
Chuck - you wrote-: "Note the two red lines at the top of our heads that represent where our heads start at address. In the second set of photos, it's very clear to see that our heads have dropped significantly below that line. Why does this happen? Simple, during the downswing, Tiger and I are both "squatting", or bending our legs to use the ground for leverage and rotate the hips out of the way."

I must respectfully disagree. I don't believe that the dropping of the head is primarily due to bending of the knees. I have previously measured the distance between Tiger Woods' hip level and the ground during the downswing, and there is little change. I believe that the head dropping is primarily due to the adopting of a secondary tilt posture during the downswing where the lower body moves forward while the upper body stays back, and that causes the head to move downwards and often slightly backwards (away from the target).

Jeff.


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 12:28pm
jeff, you are correct in the spine angle change, but you need to understand that without using the thrust of the legs just changing the spine angle would cause you to topple over and be in a very unathletic over the top position. The motion is started from the ground up, the hips and the core, not from just tilting the spine. If you are just studying video with no real knowledge of the move, it could appear that one is just tilting forward, but perform the move and you will quickly see there is no way to do it correctly without using the legs and hips as the primary mover.

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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 12:30pm
Originally posted by signboy

Chuck,

This might be a dumb question but when does the left leg straighten; before or after impact.  It has been talked about that Tiger does this less aggressively then in previous years. Does the left leg straighten at different times for the hitter/swinger. It just seems like it straightens too late for me, (after impact resulting in a loss of potential leverage?).  Am I worrying about something that is minor or does it make a significant difference in ball striking.
 
In most it straightening through impact, or straight at impact. Either is fine, what you don't want is a "soft" left leg that never straightens until well after impact, indicitive of legs that are over driving and hips that are sliding and not turning.


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: signboy
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 12:50pm
Ah, I see. I need more turn and less lower body drive.


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton

Originally posted by signboy

Chuck,

This might be a dumb question but when does the left leg straighten; before or after impact.  It has been talked about that Tiger does this less aggressively then in previous years. Does the left leg straighten at different times for the hitter/swinger. It just seems like it straightens too late for me, (after impact resulting in a loss of potential leverage?).  Am I worrying about something that is minor or does it make a significant difference in ball striking.
 
In most it straightening through impact, or straight at impact. Either is fine, what you don't want is a "soft" left leg that never straightens until well after impact, indicitive of legs that are over driving and hips that are sliding and not turning.
 
 Yea.......like Phil M . 


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 1:53pm
Chuck - I absolutely agree that the legs/hips are the primary movers. I only disagree in the sense that the knee's don't have to significantly increase their bend to accomplish that important goal - to such a degree that it would cause the head to drop 4-6". I think that most of the head drop is due to the adoption of a secondary tilt posture.

Jeff. 


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 2:11pm
jeff, my spine angle has not decreased...
 
 
 
 
 
It's a squat move that you are seeing, the rear moves back and the knees must bend for this to happen correctly.


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: Dariusz J.
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 2:51pm
Jeff, the knees bend more during downswing. Watch really the best players - Hogan & Snead in a DTL view. Take a special look at the moment when their shafts are parallel to the ground - knees have almost doubled their bend angle. Chuck is right.
 
Here's an example of Mr.Hogan in action:
 
 
 
Cheers
 
P.S. What is really interesting is that Hogan's head lowered also a bit during backswing.


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Dariusz
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Current EGA HCP: 8.7
http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3223&PN=1 - What's In My Bag


Posted By: denverhack
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 3:45pm
I have been practicing the rotary drill with and without an impact bag almost exclusively for the last 6 weeks and have found that the only (easiest, best) way to initiate a smooth downswing from a static position is to fire with the legs. This is the same feeling I try to duplicate on a full swing. At the top of my backswing my legs feel very coiled and powerful and the feeling as I start my downswing is almost the same feeling you would have if you were trying to jump on top of a 3 foot high wall.


Posted By: Ray'nBC
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 4:20pm
Aha!  The Mystery of the Disappearing Spine.

I just don't see bending legs  here.  Check out both pictures at the back of CQ's white belt (or the front, or rear pocket line)  in relation to the fence in the distance and compare it to the amount of head drop shown.  See any comparable drop?

I can believe it *feels* like the legs are compressing; after all they are moving to help counterbalance an effectively large centrifugal force (with arms, hands, club at high speed) through impact.  But I don't see the legs bending any appreciable extra amount, although it looks as if there might be somewhat of a forward/downward "droop" in the upper spine/shoulder area.  Don't see the tush line moving away from the ball, either.

I wonder if the total amount of head drop isn't due to a combination of smaller factors.

If you look at the sunglasses bow or mid-ear to nose-tip lines, it looks as if  there is a fair amount of downward "nod" of the head that would account for some of the head drop shown.

Can't see the face on view here.  I 'd like to see if some of the drop might be due to some "reverse-K" /"away from target tilt" as the body swings through impact.

Reminds me of what Groucho said, "Who are you going to believe ...?"


Posted By: theidiot
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 5:00pm
I don't see more bending in the legs, looking at the height of the hips in both pictures I see no dipping, they are at the same height, which doesn't suggest to me bending of the legs. I see a rounding of the back which surely would cause the head to become lower!? :S


Posted By: Ray'nBC
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 7:39pm
CQ wrote: "During the transition, we "weigh" more as we are literally pressing into the ground with our legs. This can't happen if our legs are straight, so we must increase the bend in them we had at the top of the swing."

It seems to me that part of my problem in understanding this relates to *when* certain things occur in the swing.  (I'd really like to see a technical analysis of weight distribution at different phases of the swing, not just at address and at the top.)

Bending the knees doesn't increase pressure on the ground, it decreases it.  Bending and *then* rebounding/straightening will increase pressure (skiers use this differential pressuring all the time).

The pictures tell me that if knee bending is occurring, it's at some point (not shown) between address and impact.  Chuck talks about the transition phase.  I'm guessing  probably a little "sit down" (pre/early-transition) motion to the left and down (to counter the upward and away-from-target forces of the backswing), followed by a little "rebound/press" upward and toward the right (in order to balance the downward and toward-the-target forces at impact and follow through).

Tiger and Chuck can swing like that;  it's not my 1P swing!




Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 8:18pm
 
'nuff said...


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 10:35pm
Chuck - that's a good photo showing that TW has increased knee bend in the early downswing.

I now think that we are both right - the head drop is due to two factors-: i) increased knee bending, which predominates in the early downswing; and ii) increased spinal tilt that predominates in the late downswing.

Here is a sequence of TW hitting a driver.



I placed a red line at hip level (just above his belt buckle) and blue line above his head.

In image 2, he has increased knee bend and his head and pelvis have both dropped, so the head drop is due to increased knee bend.

In image 3, his pelvis is above the red line while his head is below the blue line - so the head drop at this stage is due to secondary spinal tilt.

Jeff.


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 06 December 2007 at 11:33pm
Jeff, I think you are missing the story here. His spine angle is not any steeper than where it was at the top of his swing. It has simply maintained it's angle as his hips have cleared. The lower body action is what creates this dynamic and the hips clearing are what is maintaining the lower head position created during the squat. Did you not look at the photo I posted of my spine angle not changing? Tiger's spine angle is unchanged and actually DECREASES at impact.
 


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: signboy
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 12:52am
Jeff,

When you refer to secondary spinal tilt, are you referring to axis tilt or tilt away from the target. It is just a hunch but I think the term spinal tilt is being thrown around with two different meanings, in each right they can be correct.  I might be off base here, if I am let me know.  It seems like we are talking about two different tilts.


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 1:00am
Chuck - I agree that he is not changing his spine angle as seen from this DTL view. However, he is radically changing his spine tilt angle as seen from a face-on view and that causes his head to drop.

An analogy. Imagine a golfer who has a 34 degree spine angle as seen from the DTL view. Then imagine him performing two actions at the end of the backswing - sliding his pelvis left-laterally while at the same time tilting his right shoulder vertically down towards the ground in an away-from-the-target tilting manner. There will be only be a small degree of change in the spine angle (as seen from a DTL view) but a significant drop in the head height.

Second point - look at the third photo of TW in your series. His pelvis is higher (compared to the red line in photo 1) + his spine angle is less (30 degrees instead of 34 degrees), and yet his head is lower. How is that possible? The only rational explanation is spinal tilt away from the target - via the mechanism described in the above paragraph.

Signboy - you are correct. I believe that Chuck and I are talking about different spine angles.

Jeff.


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 8:50am
Axis tilt, gotcha. If that is what you were referring to, it might have made sense to post a view from face on since you can't see the angle you are referring to from the views we have been posting.
 
Either way, axis tilt happens because of the leg and hip movement while keeping the head in place, so unfortunately, the answer has not changed. He does not throw his head backwards, his hips move forward and clear and that is what changes the angle of his axis when viewed from face on.


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Current USGA Handicap +3
Player Rating = 91.1
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Biomechanics of the Golf Swing


Posted By: theidiot
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 11:20am
Could someone post a picture of Tigers address knee bend, top of the backswing knee bend and then impact knee bend.
 
It'd be good to see how much address and impact are different - if at all. And how much he straightens his leg on the backswing - if at all.


Posted By: larson92
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 3:25pm
Thanks, everyone for the help and discussion.  As you can see, I am working on the setup right now and really appreciate the help.
 
Looking forward to getting a real swing video done so I can get those online lessons. :-)


Posted By: Ray'nBC
Date Posted: 07 December 2007 at 4:59pm
http://youtube.com/watch?v=b1twG5Ft7kE&feature=related - http://youtube.com/watch?v=b1twG5Ft7kE&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPnZE3IrHWk&feature=related - http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPnZE3IrHWk&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=yqsf4bEBF-Q&feature=related - http://youtube.com/watch?v=yqsf4bEBF-Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dITcTpS2P9Q&feature=related - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dITcTpS2P9Q&feature=related


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 4:20pm
To throw this back to the original topic, I'll pass on something I've dug out of the dirt myself.
 
There are three - and only three - things which cause poor shots in my golf swing:
 
1) Swaying off the ball
2) Over-active lower body
3) Swinging "too soon" from the top.
 
My breakthrough came when I realized that 2) and to a large extent 3) are the result of 1), swaying off the ball. Lateral movement away requires lateral movement back. It is a timing dependent way to swing the golf club, no matter on what plane you are swinging.
 
Once I fixed 1), which gave me a very stable base, I found that the other problems were cured, too.
 
How did I fix it? I move the right buttock (left or lead one for a RH) to face the target right off the bat. My weight feels comfortably - no feeling of forcing anything - on the lead leg and I'm very, very stable at the top of the swing, which hasn't always been the case. I know when I'm in a good place because the downswing's always a piece of cake from there.
 
I was fortunate enough to have a fiitting at TaylorMade's Kingdom a little while ago and the real eye-opener for me was how my centre of gravity shifted throughout the swing. When compared to Jeff Brehaut - I was surprised to find he had the most balanced and optimum swing pattern among their Touring pros entered into their system - I was a squiggle and he was an almost straight line, about half the size of mine.
 
Lefty
 


Posted By: secondary
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 6:53pm
Lefty,
Pardon me for being daft, but are you saying that you move your hips right off the bat and your butt/back are facinng the target? 


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Tucson Arizon, Index down to 11!


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 08 December 2007 at 8:00pm

Secondary,

Somewhat correct. I literally move the buttock until there's pressure on the inside of my left (rear) leg. You simply can't move laterally if you do this. I consider it a major breakthrough.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: secondary
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 11:58am
I think I got you, don't know why that is hard to picture?  Rotation while still being still totally stable.  I only asky because I struggle with the whole "quiet hips" thing and I compensate now by being very weight forward on the front leg.  The shot are pretty good (as far as hitting into a net goes) but it never feels like I have any rhythm or flow.  Thanks for the clarification.

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Tucson Arizon, Index down to 11!


Posted By: Magic
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by Lefty

Secondary,

Somewhat correct. I literally move the buttock until there's pressure on the inside of my left (rear) leg. You simply can't move laterally if you do this. I consider it a major breakthrough.
 
  
 
Lefty,
Do you feel as though you are falling onto your lead leg just prior to getting to the top of the backswing? If so, doesn't this make the transition move easier because your weight is already moving onto your lead leg?  At least these are the feels that I have in my own backswing.


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Regards,
Magic



Posted By: secondary
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 12:41pm
Jeff,
Thanks that was very technical and informative.  Lefty, not to make you sit through 9 min of video, but is that what you mean?


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Tucson Arizon, Index down to 11!


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 1:12pm
Acepepper

Chuck will have to comment for himself - but I think that the standard backswing pivot action (where one simply pivots over the right femoral head as I describe) is what Chuck recommends. In his video lesson, Chuck states that he tries to get his head just behind the ball at address, and that he then simply rotates centrally without any swaying, so that the head stays just behind the ball. That's what I describe in my video lesson - and I simply call it a rightwards-centralised backswing to differentiate it from the S&T swing, which is left-centralised (where the left side of the face is deliberately positioned ahead of the ball).

Jeff.


Posted By: acepepper
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 1:18pm
Thanks Jeff. The videos were absorbing and well thought out. Well done on those and thanks for sharing all that knowledge.

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Handicap 18 and stuck there.

After an horrendous season, now up to 19


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 09 December 2007 at 2:13pm
If I can properly decipher that thick Set Effreekin accent -  - I think what Jeff's advocating is quite similar to what I'm doing except that I try to have no tilt away from the target at all at set up.
 
Is this actually achieved? I don't know but I try to feel the other way, like my rear hip's higher than my front all the way through, which I discovered long ago was the best way for me to combat my instinctual bad habit of kicking in the rear hip which is a 50-50 proposition for me whenever I feel tilted away from the target. If fast twitchy hips are not your problem, then you probably don't need to have this feeling.
 
I would say that I'm rotating around my front/centre, not rear/centre as Jeff says, so I'm probably more Stack and Tiltish in that regard.
 
Magic, I think the key is that I feel like my lead buttock has actually moved toward the target as well as turned toward the target, which I believe is the way to ensure no reverse pivoting. So, no, I don't feel like I'm falling. I feel like I could stand there for a while, holding the top of the swing position. Why is this important? In my case, I have correlated stablility at the top with quality of ball strike.
 
I've also considerably straightened my legs at address and bent over more from the hips. The more bent the knees, I have found, the more room for movement, both up and down and back and forth.
 
The last thing I would say is that I do not begin the downswing until I am completely and comfortably on the lead leg. You simply can't play this game with any consistency if you are hitting off the back foot.
 
One of the other things I saw when I was at the Kingdom was that while the average PGA Tour pro had a 4 degree forward bent of the clubface at impact, mine was barely 1 degree. Explained why I hit the ball high and took thin divots and why driving and long irons were much stronger than wedges for me. The fix for this was just to retard the downswing for an instant, until I've stepped onto the front leg.
 
I'll pass on one more tip, given to me by an old timer in Texas who knows a thing or three about the golf swing: Have your lead elbow as low as you can have it through impact. Good things happen from that position. Pay particular attention to the shape of the back of the lead hand when you "go low" into the ball.
 
Fariways and Greens,
 
Lefty
 
 


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 10 December 2007 at 8:57am
Have your lead elbow as low as you can have it through impact. Good things happen from that position.
 
Someone recently had me stand taller at address and extend/stretch my front arm down to the ball at address and keep that stretch/extension all the way throughout the swing.  Stretch that front side and get very wide on the backswing with no lateral movement.


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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 10 December 2007 at 11:38am
Hayes

When you stretch your lead arm down to the ball at address, are you straightening the left arm-clubshaft angle significantly?

Jeff.


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 10 December 2007 at 11:59am
Jeff,
 
I ordered a mirror today.  I will have to look.


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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9


Posted By: orizonalpha
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 12:54pm
Lefty, can you elaborate on what you do to combat the high shot with thin divots?  Your statement below describes me exactly.  I hit every club high.  My long game is my strong point and I struggle with hitting wedges, especially when I need lower trajectory.  What do you feel when you say "...retard the downswing for an instant?"
 
...Explained why I hit the ball high and took thin divots and why driving and long irons were much stronger than wedges for me. The fix for this was just to retard the downswing for an instant, until I've stepped onto the front leg.
 
I'll pass on one more tip, given to me by an old timer in Texas who knows a thing or three about the golf swing: Have your lead elbow as low as you can have it through impact. Good things happen from that position. Pay particular attention to the shape of the back of the lead hand when you "go low" into the ball.


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 11 December 2007 at 11:57pm
Orizon,
 
Set up with the back hip higher than front hip - facilitates a steeper shoulder turn - and keep that relationship throughout the swing. Don't let the back hip dip or kick in or do anything which would cause the back shoulder to tilt in the downswing. Feel the back of the lead hand going as low as it can through impact. As for retarding the downswing, I mean retard the upper body for an instant until you "step" onto the front leg.
 


Posted By: Dariusz J.
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 9:16am
Lefty, just curious. What do you do to have back hip higher than front one when, simultaneously, preserving an upper body tilt ad adress ?
 
Cheers


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Dariusz
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Current EGA HCP: 8.7
http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3223&PN=1 - What's In My Bag


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 12:30pm
I do not maintain the tilt away, Dariusz. I don't see it in Hogan's swing, either. I think it's the reason his shoulders are somewhat open at address with a somewhat closed stance. I'm quite wide, or shallow, into the ball, so this works well for me. If you are steep, then it's another kettle of fish. I'm trying to front-load my swing as much as possible to deal with a particular problem I have - a too-active lower body - so this isn't universal advice. Remember, too, that the fact that your rear hand is lower on the handle will give you an element of away tilt naturally.


Posted By: Dariusz J.
Date Posted: 13 December 2007 at 12:48pm
OK, all is clear, Lefty. Thanks for this explanation. BTW, I am also wide and shallow.
 
Cheers


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Dariusz
------------
Current EGA HCP: 8.7
http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3223&PN=1 - What's In My Bag


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 14 December 2007 at 8:32am
I was working out in Da Basement last night and taking some CHS readings with the radar unit.  Nothing special, most of the readings were almost as slow as most of you guys.
Anyway, in an attempt to feel like I was stretching into the backswing more, I placed a little more weight on my front side at address and kind of used that as an "anchor".  The next 4 swings registered 3-5mph faster.  Hmmmm.


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"We must not let those who do not share our values decide our fate"

Current handicap 4.9



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