Print Page | Close Window

Causes of a slice

Printed From: Golf Instruction Forum
Category: Other Golf Swing Discussion
Forum Name: One Plane Swing Theory and Help
Forum Discription: Post questions and thoughts and get help with your one plane swing.
URL: http://www.golfinstructionworld.com/golf-instruction-forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2867
Printed Date: 16 January 2018 at 4:33pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 10.11 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Causes of a slice
Posted By: doverall
Subject: Causes of a slice
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 10:09am
Was reading one of Hank Haney's books and in it he talks about slices and hooks. One of the things he says is there is a common misconception of what causes a slice. He goes on to say how people are quick to say things like you have an out-to-in swing, casting, weak grip etc etc. and that these all cause a slice.

He the states that all of these thing will accentuate a slice but dont actually cause a slice. What causes a slice is an open club face at impact and that to then fix this you need to work out what is causing it to stay open at impact.

His reasoning for this is that say for instance you swing out-to-in this doesnt cause a slice because if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it. This all sounds pretty logical to me but would like to know what other peopls think on this.





Replies:
Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 6:57pm
Hank is right.


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 4:45am

I also agree with Hank.

OnePlaner, I would swear that you are arguing differently on another thread, because I'm sure that we disagreed on this subject.  You stated that club face determined direction, not spin.  Perhaps we agree afterall and we just don't understand each others explanations.

Either way doverall, I agree that an open club face causes the slice.  A few things to consider: make sure you are not sliding forward on the DS, make sure the butt is pointing somewhere between your zipper and your pleat of the front leg at address.  The last one recently affected me.  Fixing this fault completely changed my results for the good over the last few weeks.  Not even a trace of slice.  One other thing to consider is making sure the hands are not trying to initiate the DS.  This won't necessarily keep the face open, but it will cause an out to in swing path.

Good luck, lpratt.



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 03 July 2006 at 5:06pm

Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Was reading one of Hank Haney's books and in it he talks about slices and hooks. One of the things he says is there is a common misconception of what causes a slice. He goes on to say how people are quick to say things like you have an out-to-in swing, casting, weak grip etc etc. and that these all cause a slice.

He the states that all of these thing will accentuate a slice but dont actually cause a slice. What causes a slice is an open club face at impact and that to then fix this you need to work out what is causing it to stay open at impact.

His reasoning for this is that say for instance you swing out-to-in this doesnt cause a slice because if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it. This all sounds pretty logical to me but would like to know what other peopls think on this.


 1p you said Haney was right .

 Haney is right. Yet you insist clubface angle determines initial direction .

 Contradiction.

 I ask you.................what is the initial direction of a pull? What is the initial direction of a push? Why is it called a pull or push ? Face angle ? Impact , rotation , & seperation ? Path ? What  does path mean ? Just how does swing path affect flight ?

 Haney says an out to in swing (path) doesn't cause a slice..........it's the open clubface (clubface angle) at impact that causes the slice. Or the closed face with the out to in causes a pull hook. And you agree with that ?

 Both swings (out to in ) are pulls. Right? Yet one is a slice & the other is a hook. The difference?..........is it path or angle seperation? And the difference shows up in the latter part of the flight..................or does it ? 

  What is the initial direction  of both of these shots ? Is it straight down the target line ? Is it a push path? Is it a pull path ?

 If both are pulls................what direction do they leave the at/ rest position?  Are they pulls because the (out to in) path is a pull path? Is it called a pull for a reason?..........is the reason for the term pull & push  the path of the swing or the angle of the face @ impact?

  Do both leave on a pull path?    push path ? straight down target line?

    

  We should change terminology from pull hook & pull slice to face- angle hook & face- angle slice. Why even use the word pull & push if the ball isn't pulled or pushed because of the swing-path relative to the alignment of the player & target line?

  Haney says the out to in(path) doesn't cause the slice...it's the face-angle(open).............that I agree with. Does the ball leave on a pull path then spin to the open....................or leave on an initial slice direction ?

My initial direction is on the path I swing. .....................I'm not talking about a putting stroke...............................& my shots curves in flight as a result of the angle of the face @ impact in conjunction with the speed of my path.

 



-------------


Posted By: MeltDownZ
Date Posted: 04 July 2006 at 12:29am

Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Was reading one of Hank Haney's books and in it he talks about slices and hooks. One of the things he says is there is a common misconception of what causes a slice. He goes on to say how people are quick to say things like you have an out-to-in swing, casting, weak grip etc etc. and that these all cause a slice.

He the states that all of these thing will accentuate a slice but dont actually cause a slice. What causes a slice is an open club face at impact and that to then fix this you need to work out what is causing it to stay open at impact.

His reasoning for this is that say for instance you swing out-to-in this doesnt cause a slice because if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it. This all sounds pretty logical to me but would like to know what other peopls think on this.


Hank is correct.  It's simple physics.  While there can be endless debates about various causes and effects in the golf swing, this isn't one of them.  Now, answering the question of why your clubface is open at impact, that's another story :)



Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 04 July 2006 at 2:00am
One planer is confused again but this time I agree with him. I told him path determined starting direction and he disagreed with me. I guess I have to teach Tiger to be credible.


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 05 July 2006 at 1:49am

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Hank is right.

 

 there is your agreement with Hank



-------------


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 05 July 2006 at 9:14am
OK, here we go again.   Just as I thought, we're interpreting Hank's statement differently but coming to the same conclusion that an open face causes a slice.

Hank is right in saying that an open clubface causes a slice, regardless of the path of the club through the ball.   At impact, the clubface is open.  During the compression phase, it remains open.  In other words, the toe doesn't rotate sufficiently to counteract the open face.  At separation, then, the face is still open.  The ball will start to the right of the path (90 degrees to the face plane at that instant) and curve farther to the right in flight.

If the toe had rotated sufficiently during the compression phase to offset the slice spin, you wouldn't have a slice.  You'd have something else depending on the net effect of slice spin caused by an open face at impact and hook spin caused by clubface rotation during compression.  Regardless of that interplay, the ball would have left the clubface in the direction the face was looking at separation.

If you agree with that, then you agree with what I've been explaining about the dynamics of impact all along.  So why all the argumentation?

Randini, the answer to all your questions can be extrapolated from what I wrote above.  Put your thinking cap on. 



Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 2:12am

I don't remember Hank saying anything about all this mumbo jumbo OP:

At impact, the clubface is open.  During the compression phase, it remains open.  In other words, the toe doesn't rotate sufficiently to counteract the open face.  At separation, then, the face is still open.  The ball will start to the right of the path (90 degrees to the face plane at that instant) and curve farther to the right in flight.

If the toe had rotated sufficiently during the compression phase to offset the slice spin, you wouldn't have a slice.  You'd have something else depending on the net effect of slice spin caused by an open face at impact and hook spin caused by clubface rotation during compression.  Regardless of that interplay, the ball would have left the clubface in the direction the face was looking at separation.

I remember him saying:

swinging out-to-in doesn't cause a slice because: if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it.

Here is what he said:

Out-to-in path + square clubface = pull (ball starts and continues on a straight line left of target line.)

Out-to-in swing + closed face = pullhook (It will start straight left and curve more left.

What wasn't said but also holds true:

Out-to in path + open face= pull fade or pull slice (ball starts left & curves right).

Q. What is the common variable??? 

A. Out-to-in path

Q. What is the only changing variable?

A. Clubface position.

Q.What is the common result?    

A. The Ball starts left

Q. What is the only varied result?

A. Ball curvature or lack thereof.

I flip the variables in the other thread 

Conclusion:

Hank says that OP's theory that the clubface determines the starting direction of ball flight more so than the path of the club, is  

 


 



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 11:21am
Originally posted by priceunderpar priceunderpar wrote:

I don't remember Hank saying anything about all this mumbo jumbo OP:

Hank was keeping it simple for the simple minded.  

At impact, the clubface is open.  During the compression phase, it remains open.  In other words, the toe doesn't rotate sufficiently to counteract the open face.  At separation, then, the face is still open.  The ball will start to the right of the path (90 degrees to the face plane at that instant) and curve farther to the right in flight.

If the toe had rotated sufficiently during the compression phase to offset the slice spin, you wouldn't have a slice.  You'd have something else depending on the net effect of slice spin caused by an open face at impact and hook spin caused by clubface rotation during compression.  Regardless of that interplay, the ball would have left the clubface in the direction the face was looking at separation.

I remember him saying:

swinging out-to-in doesn't cause a slice because: if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it.

Here is what he said:

Out-to-in path + square clubface = pull (ball starts and continues on a straight line left of target line.)

I thought we were talking about a slice, Price.  is this what he actually said, or is it you extrapolationg from incomplete variables again?

If Hank actually said this, he didn't give us enough information.  He's right that this ball would start to the left of the target line and directly along a tangent to the path, but it might continue straight, or it might curve left or right, depending on the other variables.  How open was the face at impact, and how much did the toe rotate around the heel during compression?

Out-to-in swing + closed face = pullhook (It will start straight left and curve more left.

This ball would start even more to the left than the one above because the ball would leave to the left of the path (90* to the face plane at separation).  It would likely curve more left because the toe rotation would probably be suffcient to offset the spin imparted by the face angle at impact, which could have been open, square, or closed.  Again, we don't have enough information.

What wasn't said but also holds true:

This is getting tedious, so I'll stop right here.  Besides you switched colors on me, and it will get too confusing. 

I'll just say in closing that you can't analyze ball flight unless you take all of the variables that affect ball flight into account.  Your argument assumes a static clubface when it is obvious that the clubface rotates through impact and affects the axis of spin when the ball comes off the face at separation.  Axis of spin is what makes the ball curve.  Ignoring that variable renders your analyses incomplete at best and invalid at worst. 

<snipped the rest of Price's incomplete and/or invalid examples>

Hank says that OP's theory that the clubface determines the starting direction of ball flight more so than the path of the club, is 

If Hank actually says this, I'd love to have the same discussion with him.  I think I could convince him that the ball leaves the face at 90* to the face plane at separation and that clubface rotation during compression affects ball spin and hence curvature in flight.  You, on the other hand, seem to be incapable of leaving an outmoded theory behind.  The earth is not flat. 

 


 



Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 2:56pm

Well OP you may THINK you'd change his mind, but I think your conversation would go something like this.

 Hank would look at you and say:

"So let me get this straight sir...When you want to hit a draw that starts right and curves left, you say your going to hook the face during compession to offset an open clubface at seperation?"

You would say "Yea that's the new rule, your rule is old"

He would Chuckle and then say:

"Wow well you must be really good and smarter then everybody else. all Tiger and I do is let the club come slightly inside with a square face at impact."



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by priceunderpar priceunderpar wrote:

Well OP you may THINK you'd change his mind, but I think your conversation would go something like this.

 Hank would look at you and say:

"So let me get this straight sir...When you want to hit a draw that starts right and curves left, you say your going to hook the face during compession to offset an open clubface at seperation?"

You would say "Yea that's the new rule, your rule is old"

He would Chuckle and then say:

"Wow well you must be really good and smarter then everybody else. all Tiger and I do is let the club come slightly inside with a square face at impact."



Doubtful, but, assuming he'd say something like that, I'd come back with the following.

Me:  Well, Hank, is tiger's clubface open to the target line as he comes down to impact?

Hank:  Sure, every good player has the face open coming down to impact,

Me:  Then how is he going to square the clubface at impact?

Hank:  Ummmm......

Me:  And does Tiger rotate the clubface through the ball?

Hank:  Of course, that's what you have to do to square the clubface.

Me:  OK, now we're getting somewhere.  It's safe to say that Tiger compresses the hell out of the ball, right?

Hank:  He sure does.  He flattens it by one quarter of its size.  We've seen in on super slow motion video.

Me:  Great, now would you say that the clubface is rotating when he flattens the ball?

Hank:  Absolutely, he rotates the face at 30 degrees of rotation per linear foot for a space of two feet on both sides of the ball position, so the clubface has to be rotating while the ball is flattened on his clubface.

Me:  So the toe is rotating very rapidly around the heel while the ball is compressed on the face, right?

Hank:  Yep, I guess so.

Me: So, if you told him to swing from the inside with the clubface square at impact, how is he going to prevent the clubface from rotating beyond square when the ball separates from the clubface?

Hank:  Ummmm.......I guess the clubface can't be square at that point.

Me:  Correct, Hank.  It will have rotated from square to closed in that brief space, right?

Hank:  Apparently so, Uno.

Me:  So, Hank, if the face is looking left when the ball springs off, what will be the initial direction of flight?

Hank:  Well, Tiger's path is inside out, and Gary Wiren's Ball Flight Rules say that path determines initial direction.

Me:  So you're saying that the ball will start to the right even though the face is looking left?  How is that possible?

Hank:  I don't know, I'm just following the rules.

Me:  What if I proved to you that the rules are wrong?

Hank:  Rulz is rulz.  I don't think you can do it.

Me:  Take a look at these videos that my friend Clubcaster created using a coaster and a DVD case.

Hank:  <Watches videos>  Well, yeah, but that won't hold true at higher swing speeds.

Me:  Why not?

Hank:  I don't know, because Wiren said so, and so have several physics guys.

Me:  OK, let's check it out.  Take this driver and hit it with as much speed as you possibly can, but leave the face wide open through impact.

<thwack>

Me:  What was your path on that swing, Hank?

Hank:  It was right down the target line, on-plane.

Me:  Where did the ball start in relation to your path?

Hank:  Umm, to the right of the path, and then it curved to the right,

Me:  So it didn't start on your swing path?

Hank:  Nope, it didn't.

Me:  Convinced now, or do you want to try another ball?

Hank:  No, I'm convinced,  The ball left where the clubface was looking.  Wiren might have been wrong about that one.

Me:  OK, let's go back to what you told Tiger about hitting a shot that starts to the right of the target line and draws back on the target.  How would he start the ball to the right?

Hank:  Well, I guess the face would have to be looking right when the ball leaves.

Me:  You got it in one, Hank.  What will cause the ball to curve back to the left?

Hank:  That's easy, it's the square clubface at impact.

Me:  But didn't we agree that the face wouldn't stay square while the ball is compressed?

Hank:  Yes, we did.

Me:  Wouldn't a rotating clubface compress the outer hemisphere of the ball more than the inner hemisphere.

Hank:  I don't know.

Me:  Well, ball compression is a function of clubhead speed, isn't it?

Hank:  Yep.

Me:  If the clubface is rotating, wouldn't that mean that the toe is traveling faster than the heel?

Hank:  Obviously

Me:  So doesn't it make sense that the outer half of the ball experiences more compression than the innter half?

Hank:  Sure, makes sense.

Me:  What kind of spin would that produce, Hank?

Hank:  Hook spin I suppose.  The ball would fly right to left.

Me:  Excellent.  So you'd agree that the ball would start left and curve farther left if Tiger swings inside out with a square clubface at impact?

Hank:  You've convinced me.  Why all these questions, anyway?  No one ever tries to hit a shot that starts right and draws.  It just happens.

Me:  That's absolutely true, Hank.  It just happens.  As you know, strong players hit that shot quite often because of the dynamics of their swings.  Thanks to the amended Ball Flight Rules, now we know why it happens.  I wouldn't have troubled you with this, but a guy named priceunderpar put me up to it.

Hank:  Who's he?




 


Posted By: gwlee7
Date Posted: 06 July 2006 at 8:12pm

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Hank:  Rulz is rulz.  I don't think you can do it.

Me:  Take a look at these videos that my friend Clubcaster created using a coaster and a DVD case.

Damn, that made me laugh really hard



Posted By: Clubcaster
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 12:13am
   Bravo, OP, Bravo!!!!      

-------------
http://ClubCaster.home.comcast.net - http://ClubCaster.home.comcast.net


Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 12:25am

OP I don't think he would have said as much. He'd be asleep as soon as you started going NASA on him...like this!

OP: Hank you hit that draw because you rotated the face 3* during compression offsetting the 2* open face at seperation-

HANK: Yawn!!!

OP: Hank that was rude I was in the middle of explaining this to you! Pay attention! Okay now to hit a fade, you rotate the face 1* during compression which doesn't offset the 2*open face at......

Hank: ZZZZZzzzzzz

OP: Hank???? Hank don't go to sleep I havent shown you my video of a DVD case hitting coasters....Hank???



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 12:33am

 Bravo Price..........we gotta get these boys of the Kool-aid  

 NASA with a coaster & empty DVD case  



-------------


Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 1:06am

errrr, I thought the coaster and DVD case was a great demo.... I've since tried it with a tennis raquet, ping pong paddle, driver, & putter... No matter what speed I use, swing path or what tool, the ball always starts in the direction the face is aiming hitting a stationary ball. I certainly can't prove one planer wrong and all of my tests seem to prove him right...

 

 



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 1:10am
 You are starting to worry me Bob............

-------------


Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 1:17am
Really?? Was the ping pong paddle inside or outside the swing plane at impact????


Posted By: Swing_King
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 4:47am
Well, I've been dead quiet through all this until I was sure either way. I'm still not compleeeeetly sure, but i'm now seeing much sense in Uno's theory.

-------------
12Hcp
History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
- Abba Eban


Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 6:04am

SK. I've thought this out and I hope because you're not compleeeeetly sure on this, I hope I can tip the scales, with this, my final argument.

The "Wiren laws" that path is the biggest determiner of the starting direction of the golf ball, is MORE TRUE than any law to the contrary, but these laws are NOT ABSOLUTE and will not be the main determiner of starting flight in all cases.

Again, In most instances path is the primary factor in starting direction, and the face position at impact is the main factor in determining curve, but there are instances where this may not be true.

The exceptions to the "Wiren rules" are:

If the path is in-to-out or square, but the club face is severely closed at impact, (imagine the clubface looking at the ball almost horizontal to the path) the ball may be prevented from starting on the clubs path and may fly in a differnt or opposite direction.

If the path is out-to-in or square, but the club face is severely open at impact, (imagine the clubface almost horizontal open to path) then ball may be prevented from starting on the clubs path and may fly in a different or opposite direction.

Now considering both of these two exceptions, the Wiren rules HOLD TRUE, and path is MOST RESPONSIBLE for starting direction, clubface position at impact MOST RESPONSIBLE for ball flight curvature or lack thereof.

If you don't really think this holds true, I cannot do or say any more to prove my point.

 



Posted By: Swing_King
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 7:53am

Nope, that doesn't convince me, Price.

I'm pretty much sold on the rotation through impact and compression effect on the ball thang. Although I have to add, I'm not that bothered either way. It strikes me as pretty meaningless really.



-------------
12Hcp
History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
- Abba Eban


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:51am
Originally posted by priceunderpar priceunderpar wrote:

The "Wiren laws" that path is the biggest determiner of the starting direction of the golf ball, is MORE TRUE than any law to the contrary, but these laws are NOT ABSOLUTE and will not be the main determiner of starting flight in all cases.



Be careful, Price.  That sounds vaguely like a reluctant concession. 

But I'll give you one thing.   Wiren's law that path determines direction is absolutely true in one sense.  If the path is forward, the ball will leave going forward, not backwards.  

 


Posted By: priceunderpar
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 1:46pm
Concession OP? Your reaching. I think it is the most complete explanation of any I've read. I think so because you can watch what I've said happen prove true. You can video a swing-see the club come from inside, you can get a high speed camera to focus on impact, and you can see the result. You can watch the ball start right on the path, you can see it curve left if the face is square to the target line. Never the less. Still done with all this.  


Posted By: MeltDownZ
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 5:06pm

I'm a little confused about why there's all this discussion of physics that are readily understood in the public domain.  When the club strikes the ball you've got a number of forces but the primary ones are the direction of the strike, the frictional rub to left or right which causes side spin,  the frictional rub up or down causing top/bottom spin, and the resistance/friction of the ground if it comes in play.   The cd case and coaster aren't a good model for me because the frictional characteristics are completely different nor does the Magnus effect come into play.  So, I'd expect the outcome to be strongly influenced by attack angle.  But, with a golf ball struck hard where you have a good amount of compression and friction in play, the direction of the strike will have an opportunity to transfer to the ball affecting initial flight and the side spin will then affect it's eventual curve.   This is all common knowledge.  There's documention all over the place with complete descriptions of the Magnus effect created by spin.  The following page has a complete breakdown and all the formulas to support this:
http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm - http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm



Posted By: Clubcaster
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:08pm

Originally posted by MeltDownZ MeltDownZ wrote:

I'm a little confused about why there's all this discussion of physics that are readily understood in the public domain.  When the club strikes the ball you've got a number of forces but the primary ones are the direction of the strike, the frictional rub to left or right which causes side spin,  the frictional rub up or down causing top/bottom spin, and the resistance/friction of the ground if it comes in play.   The cd case and coaster aren't a good model for me because the frictional characteristics are completely different nor does the Magnus effect come into play.  So, I'd expect the outcome to be strongly influenced by attack angle.  But, with a golf ball struck hard where you have a good amount of compression and friction in play, the direction of the strike will have an opportunity to transfer to the ball affecting initial flight and the side spin will then affect it's eventual curve.   This is all common knowledge.  There's documention all over the place with complete descriptions of the Magnus effect created by spin.  The following page has a complete breakdown and all the formulas to support this:
http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm - http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm

Curse you, Meltdownz!  You made me think way harder than I'm comfortable with .  I'm not much of a physics guy, so it took me a while to make sense of this, but it actually supports the theory that the initial direction is perpendicular to the clubface, and the spin on the ball is caused by angle of the path in relation to the clubface. 

The purpose of the article is to calculate ball flight trajectory.  It explains how the dimples on the spinning ball cause the air-flow above the ball to travel faster and thus the pressure on the ball from the top to be lower than the air pressure below the ball.  That's the phenomenon known as the Magnus effect.

The part of the article that focuses on side spin, is summarized in this diagram.

V stands for Velocity, of which Vx, Vy, and Vz (the three dimensions in space) are components.  Path is swing path.  And N is the normal reaction force between the ball and the plane.  In other words, the initial direction the ball starts out on as a result of being hit by the clubface.  That gobbledygook (physics term) on the top left hand corner of the diagram is for calculating how spin on the ball will affect curvature in flight. 

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.



-------------
http://ClubCaster.home.comcast.net - http://ClubCaster.home.comcast.net


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:21pm
OP, I couldn't care less about all this stuff because I can't do a darn thing with the club at impact, like Hogan said, it's a devilish thing to try and control. But, your dialogue with Hank was hilarious. Could you do one with Tiger next? Oo, and Jim Hardy and then maybe Peter Kostis. Oh wait, then do David Feherty, ya! Do Feherty. We'll make these monthly features, just "talk" about any topic and post them, they're great entertainment! And then price can come in and do his bit afterwards and then...

-------------
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:34pm

OP, you know what you deserve

 

 

 

Micah



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:36pm

Actually, you deserve better

 

 

 

Micah



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:41pm

You still deserve more

 

  

 

 

Micah

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07 July 2006 at 8:46pm

Here you guy Price

Hey, it's a picture of Gary Wiren

Keep it close

 

Micah



Posted By: Magic
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 12:48am

Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

OP, I couldn't care less about all this stuff because I can't do a darn thing with the club at impact, like Hogan said, it's a devilish thing to try and control. But, your dialogue with Hank was hilarious. Could you do one with Tiger next? Oo, and Jim Hardy and then maybe Peter Kostis. Oh wait, then do David Feherty, ya! Do Feherty. We'll make these monthly features, just "talk" about any topic and post them, they're great entertainment! And then price can come in and do his bit afterwards and then...

Great idea, Chuck! Feherty would be great! Hey! How about McCord? OP, anyway to work the bikini wax bit into the conversation? Hee! Hee!

Magic



Posted By: lips
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 6:45am
Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

OP, I couldn't care less about all this stuff because I can't do a darn thing with the club at impact, like Hogan said, it's a devilish thing to try and control. But, your dialogue with Hank was hilarious. Could you do one with Tiger next? Oo, and Jim Hardy and then maybe Peter Kostis. Oh wait, then do David Feherty, ya! Do Feherty. We'll make these monthly features, just "talk" about any topic and post them, they're great entertainment! And then price can come in and do his bit afterwards and then...


Aha, I know.  None of us can do anything intentional with the club at impact.  All we can do is reason backwards from the ball flight to what was happening through the impact zone.  That's the only value of it.  Diagnosis.  But diagnosis is the first step to a cure.  That was the whole point of Wiren's Ball Flight Rules.  Problem is, Wiren got the indicators wrong.

I can't do Feherty, Chuck.  He's funnier than I am by a wide margin.  Tiger, on the other hand, is completely humorless, and I have too much respect for Hardy to lampoon him.  Now, Peter Kostis is a possibility.  I'll think about it. 

 


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 8:19am
Originally posted by mpastula@att.ne mpastula@att.ne wrote:

You still deserve more

 

  

 

 

Micah

 



A beer and a donut together?  YEEEETCH!  I'll drink the beer at night and eat the donut in the morning, Micah. 

 


Posted By: Swing_King
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 8:25am
I'd have the beer in the morning and the donut at night. Maybe that's why my practice always goes tits up...

-------------
12Hcp
History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
- Abba Eban


Posted By: Clubcaster
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 9:51am
Originally posted by lips lips wrote:

Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.


That's a great point lips.  I just tried my experiment again using a slice of bread instead of a DVD box, and it did make a difference.  The question then comes down to the compression characteristics of the ball vs. the clubface, and if I'm not mistaken, slow motion video shows that the ball compresses a ton more.  Point well taken though.  I think this might also bolster One Planer's point about the significance of clubhead rotation during compression.  When I get home tonight, I'll try to make another video to show how compression of the clubface can make a difference.  Thank you for speaking up.

ClubCaster



-------------
http://ClubCaster.home.comcast.net - http://ClubCaster.home.comcast.net


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 10:42am

Gosh OP, your so picky

 

Micah



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

Originally posted by lips lips wrote:

Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.


That's a great point lips.  I just tried my experiment again using a slice of bread instead of a DVD box, and it did make a difference. 

 you're getting closer but still twisting the toast to suit you're  side. ..........the slice of bread should be the coaster ...........not the dvd box

 why don't you try it with a golf ball & club ?

 The question then comes down to the compression characteristics of the ball vs. the clubface, and if I'm not mistaken, slow motion video shows that the ball compresses a ton more. 

 sure does............thats  the speed factor you say doesn't matter......& like lips is trying to tell you ........the more speed.....the more compression.....the more "drag" of the clubface...........the more path initial direction........

 Point well taken though.  I think this might also bolster One Planer's point about the significance of clubhead rotation during compression.  When I get home tonight, I'll try to make another video to show how compression of the clubface can make a difference.  Thank you for speaking up.

ClubCaster



-------------


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 11:07am
Originally posted by lips lips wrote:

Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.

 thanks lips............I have been saying all along, all factors come into play. There are elements of truth on all fronts. What they can't understand is the speed factor  giving compression & therefore the "drag on path" as you so well put it

 



-------------


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by lips lips wrote:

Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.

 thanks lips............I have been saying all along, all factors come into play. There are elements of truth on all fronts. What they can't understand is the speed factor  giving compression & therefore the "drag on path" as you so well put it

 



Compression happens before separation, so yes, the ball is dragged to the path while the ball is compressed.  It doesn't matter.  The ball leaves the face at 90* to where the face is looking at separation.  If the face is looking down a tangent to the path at that point.  It will leave on-path.  If the face is looking right or left of the path at separation, then the ball will start right or left of the path respectively.

 


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 08 July 2006 at 9:55pm
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by lips lips wrote:

Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.

 thanks lips............I have been saying all along, all factors come into play. There are elements of truth on all fronts. What they can't understand is the speed factor  giving compression & therefore the "drag on path" as you so well put it

 



Compression happens before separation, so yes, the ball is dragged to the path while the ball is compressed.  It doesn't matter.  The ball leaves the face at 90* to where the face is looking at separation. 

 this is based upon what data ?

 

 If the face is looking down a tangent to the path at that point.  It will leave on-path.  If the face is looking right or left of the path at separation, then the ball will start right or left of the path respectively.

 



-------------


Posted By: lips
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 1:32am

What's missing is inertia.  If the ball was dragged along the swing path during the compression phase then this must be taken into account.

I'll try to put down my analysis of the situation from a pure physics angle.

(If you're not interested go now and play some golf ).

I'll use the situation in Club's picture (open club face to swing path at separation).

Let's look at the movement of the ball relative to space at the instance just before of separation.  It was:

- dragged along the swing path by the club head,

- dragged by the turning club head in the direction perpendicular to the club face.

- moved by the decompressing club face, which I assume to be decompressing perpendicular to the direction perpendicular to the club face.

#1.  Combining the above, the direction of the movement of the ball just before separation is between the direction of the swing path and the direction perpendicular to the club face.

#2.  The club head was turning during the compression face and this also drags the ball to be turning (relative to space) as well.

For this analysis I ignore the situation when the ball actually rolls up the club face during the compression phase.

Now look at the forces pushing the ball at separation.

If we assume at separation the club face is flat again (no compression and no bulge - not sure if this is true) then Club's picture accurately depicts the situation.  The force perpendicular to the club face is a combination of the force from the movement of the club face *and* the spring of the club face back from compression.  The force paralell to the club face should be only from the movement of the club face as I assume the club face decompresses in the direction perpendicular to the club face.  Regardless, if the clubface is flat at separation there are two forces - one perpendicular to the club face and the other parallel to the club face.  (Of course to the ball there is only one force but we break it up into two forces for analysis as they affect the ball differently).

So:  At separation the ball is

#3.  pushed by a force perpendicular to the club face,

#4.  pushed by another force parallel to the club face towards the bottom of Club's picture.

4a.  Since the surface of the ball is tangential to the club face and there is friction between the surface of the ball and the club face, force #4 spins the ball. 

4b.  Precisely because of friction, force #4 also pushes the ball (but probably only a little bit) "down" along the direction parallel the club face.

OK, finally the combination of the above. 

1, 3, 4b - at separation the ball moves in a direction between the swing path and the direction perpendicular to the club face.  (Ha, ha, what's new?)  Is this direction closer to the swing path or the direction perpendicular to the club head?  This is affected by a lot of factors as is evident from the above analysis.  Different factors may dominate in different situations.

2, 4a - the ball spins in the direction as depicted in Club's picture.  This causes the ball to curve right at some point.

OK.  Enough physics.  I'll go hit some balls now.



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 2:18am
 That........is cool        like "elements of truth on both fronts"...........I think I heard that somewhere...............

-------------


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 2:57am
I usually try to avoid these latest threads centered around the physics of impact only because I get dizzy.  I don't discount the importance of the impact zone, but all of the physics terms and analysis make my head spin.  However, the dialogue with Haney was possibly the funniest thing I've read in these forums.  I spit on my monitor from laughing so uncontrollably.  That was priceless stuff, OP.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 8:02am
Originally posted by Knock It Stiff Knock It Stiff wrote:

I usually try to avoid these latest threads centered around the physics of impact only because I get dizzy.  I don't discount the importance of the impact zone, but all of the physics terms and analysis make my head spin.  However, the dialogue with Haney was possibly the funniest thing I've read in these forums.  I spit on my monitor from laughing so uncontrollably.  That was priceless stuff, OP.


I'm glad you liked it, Knock. 
 


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 8:21am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by lips lips wrote:

Originally posted by Clubcaster Clubcaster wrote:

..........

Notice that N is pointing in a direction perpendicular to the open clubface, and Path is pointing in an outside in direction.  Therefore, with an outside-in swing path and an open clubface, the ball will start out going right, in a direction perpendicular to the clubface, and curve further right because of the spin on the ball caused by the angle of the swing path in relation to the clubface angle.

Thanks,
ClubCaster
P.S.  The second video that I showed of the DVD box striking the coaster illustrates this phenomenon perfectly.

Hello.  My first post.  I'm a terrible golfer but I do know something about physics. 

The above is correct if the club face does not compress.  If it does the face will drag the ball towards the direction of the swing path.  Amount of face compression depends on speed.  The rotating club head also puts spin on the ball.  All these factors come into play.  Probably in different situations one of the factors would dominate.

My $0.02.

 thanks lips............I have been saying all along, all factors come into play. There are elements of truth on all fronts. What they can't understand is the speed factor  giving compression & therefore the "drag on path" as you so well put it

 



Compression happens before separation, so yes, the ball is dragged to the path while the ball is compressed.  It doesn't matter.  The ball leaves the face at 90* to where the face is looking at separation. 

 this is based upon what data ?

 

 If the face is looking down a tangent to the path at that point.  It will leave on-path.  If the face is looking right or left of the path at separation, then the ball will start right or left of the path respectively.

 



The illustration above will do.  Notice the path and notice the clubface angle (N), and provide us with the data that says that ball is going to start in the direction of the path.
 


Posted By: rayvil01
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 10:21am

One-Planer, excellent analysis.

Conversation with Haney was hilarious!  



-------------
http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/golf-swing-lag-most-important.html - How to improve your golf swing lag




Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 09 July 2006 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by rayvil01 rayvil01 wrote:

One-Planer, excellent analysis.

Conversation with Haney was hilarious!  



Glad you liked it, Ray.  I had Hank right where I wanted him. 
 



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.11 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2012 Web Wiz Ltd. - http://www.webwiz.co.uk