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Little tip for analysing ball flight.

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Topic: Little tip for analysing ball flight.
Posted By: doverall
Subject: Little tip for analysing ball flight.
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 10:20am
Some years ago on the golf channel i saw a programme where the guy presenting it said if you remember one thing from this programme remember this.

"The ball will start in the direction that your shoulders are pointing at impact and the ball will finish where your club face was pointing at impact"

Now this was the only thing i can remember from the programme, cant event remember who presented it.

It does seem to make sense to me, for instance if I want to hit a draw then I swing slightly more from the inside (so my shoulders would be slightly closed) and the club face would be slightly closed to this swing path creating a draw. if the club face was square to this path then i would hit a push.

Would like to know what you guys think of this little gem of information...



Replies:
Posted By: flyfishin
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 12:37pm
I used to follow a general guide line of aligning the shoulders where I want the ball to start and align the clubface where I want it to end up. The difference is that these are address positions and not impact positions. With a ops your shoulders are very open to your line of flight at impact.


Posted By: Insight
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 7:25pm
I am sure he is referring to shaping shots and more how you align your shoulders at setup to influence the direction of the plane.  It is entirely possible for your shoulders to be aligned one way at impact and your plane  and face to be aligned other ways.  not to say this would be efficient or "proper"... just possible.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Some years ago on the golf channel i saw a programme where the guy presenting it said if you remember one thing from this programme remember this.

"The ball will start in the direction that your shoulders are pointing at impact and the ball will finish where your club face was pointing at impact"

Now this was the only thing i can remember from the programme, cant event remember who presented it.

It does seem to make sense to me, for instance if I want to hit a draw then I swing slightly more from the inside (so my shoulders would be slightly closed) and the club face would be slightly closed to this swing path creating a draw. if the club face was square to this path then i would hit a push.

Would like to know what you guys think of this little gem of information...


I think it's dead wrong.  The ball will always start in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.   The shoulders can be open, square, or closed, but the clubface angle at separation determines the initial direction of flight. Whether it curves in the air is influenced by the path of the club and the amount of clubhead rotation while the ball is compressed on the face. 


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 7:52pm

You said all you needed to say in the first sentence: "on the golf channel"

This advice is wrong as a blanket statement, dead wrong, but for a two plane swing which he was likely talking about, it's a fair enough statement. For a one planer, not so much.

 



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 10:30pm
Just remember this about ball flight.  The ball flight is affected by several variables 1) is the face angle and 2) swing path 3) the angle of the club and 4) the speed of the club. Of the 4 according to great John Jacobs the clubface at impact is the most important factor.  In addition, keep this in mind:  The angle of the clubface at impact will create the side spin and the swing path with determine where the ball will start off at.  For example, a pull happens when your clubface is square to your swing path not your target line (the swing path will be moving from the outside to inside).  I hope this helps a little bit.  If you have any questions about this I will be more than happy to help.  I have been studying a lot of Mr. Jacobs theory about ball flight I to me it is right on. 

Chuck, if anything is off on this please correct me.

Remember fairways and greens!!!!!! (Phil should have listened to this on the 18th ahahah)  That was a cheap shot but I couldn't resist


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 20 June 2006 at 11:10pm
1.  What does he mean by "angle of the club"?  Is that like forward shaft lean?

2.  Does he make a distinction between the clubface angle at impact vs. separation?  If not, he has missed a crucial factor, clubface rotation during the compression phase.


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 12:23am
Angle of the club coming into impact meaning how steep/shallow.
And to answer your second question I believe he mentioned something about this.  Let me go back through my notes on this one and I will get back to you.


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 12:57am

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

I think it's dead wrong.  The ball will always start in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.   The shoulders can be open, square, or closed, but the clubface angle at separation determines the initial direction of flight. Whether it curves in the air is influenced by the path of the club and the amount of clubhead rotation while the ball is compressed on the face. 
 

For the first time ever, I have to disagree with OnePlaner.

As far as I understand, you have your influences reversed.  The ball's initial direction is determined by the swing path - the club face at impact determines the side spin.  An out to in swing path with an open face at impact will cause a pull slice.  An out to in path with a closed face causes a pulled straight ball.  Simplify (and slow down) the dynamics by putting.  If you putt directly towards a target, but keep the face open; the ball will initially start out towards the target, but a slice spin will send it off course.

I don't quite understand how physics differs from a 1PS to a 2PS.  Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

lp



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 1:26am
  Initial direction is established by path. Face angle & rotation (or lack of) determines curvature. Curvature can be either verticle or horizontial........depends on face angle, face rotation (or lack of) & angle of attack.

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Posted By: acepepper
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 3:21am
Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:


"The ball will start in the direction that your shoulders are pointing at impact and the ball will finish where your club face was pointing at impact"

Surely, to make any sense at all, that should read, "The ball will start in the direction that your shoulders are pointing at ADDRESS and the ball will finish where your club face was pointing at impact"


Posted By: dave.
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 3:40am
Thye advice is pointless because he doesn't tell you what to do with it.He could have said "check you have a good posture and a good swing or the ball will go somewhere you don't want it to go",so pretty normal for the golf channel then.


Posted By: doverall
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 5:47am
Originally posted by acepepper acepepper wrote:

Surely, to make any sense at all, that should read, "The ball will start in the direction that your shoulders are pointing at ADDRESS and the ball will finish where your club face was pointing at impact"


Why do you say that, if as Chuck mentioned this tip is more based on a 2 plane swing then yoru swing path and shoulder should be approximately the same.

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:


I think it's dead wrong.  The ball will always start in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.   The shoulders can be open, square, or closed, but the clubface angle at separation determines the initial direction of flight. Whether it curves in the air is influenced by the path of the club and the amount of clubhead rotation while the ball is compressed on the face. 
 

One Planer, i dont agree with you either, remember my other post about "what causes a slice", you said you agreed with hank. A slice or a hook is caused by the direction the clubface points at impact in reltation to the swing path.
Therefore swing path dictates where the ball starts and clubface where the ball finishes.

Maybe the guy should have said:
"The ball will always start in the direction your swing path is on a impact and the ball will always finish where the clubface is point at impact in relation to the swingpath"

So if i were to hit a shot that starts towards the target but the moves to the right of the target this would indicate that my swing path was spot on but my clubface was open at impact therefore imparting left to right sidespin onto the ball


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 8:17am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

  Initial direction is established by path. Face angle & rotation (or lack of) determines curvature. Curvature can be either verticle or horizontial........depends on face angle, face rotation (or lack of) & angle of attack.


Nope.  That's a common misconception.  Initial direction is a function of face angle at separation.  The ball will always jump off the face and 90 degrees to where the face it looking at that instant.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 8:40am


Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:


I think it's dead wrong.  The ball will always start in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.   The shoulders can be open, square, or closed, but the clubface angle at separation determines the initial direction of flight. Whether it curves in the air is influenced by the path of the club and the amount of clubhead rotation while the ball is compressed on the face. 
 

One Planer, i dont agree with you either, remember my other post about "what causes a slice", you said you agreed with hank. A slice or a hook is caused by the direction the clubface points at impact in reltation to the swing path.
Therefore swing path dictates where the ball starts and clubface where the ball finishes.

Maybe the guy should have said:
"The ball will always start in the direction your swing path is on a impact and the ball will always finish where the clubface is point at impact in relation to the swingpath"

So if i were to hit a shot that starts towards the target but the moves to the right of the target this would indicate that my swing path was spot on but my clubface was open at impact therefore imparting left to right sidespin onto the ball
[/QUOTE]

Here we go again.    In the shot you've just described, the clubface was open at impact and square at separation, but there was insufficient clubface rotation during the compression phase to offset the slice spin resulting from the open face at impact.  Hence, the ball started at the target because that's where the face was looking when it left.  It moved to the right in the air because the toe of the clubhead didn't get around enough to cancel the slice spin caused by the open face at impact.  This shot typically happens when you hold off the release.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:07am
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

I think it's dead wrong.  The ball will always start in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.   The shoulders can be open, square, or closed, but the clubface angle at separation determines the initial direction of flight. Whether it curves in the air is influenced by the path of the club and the amount of clubhead rotation while the ball is compressed on the face. 
 

For the first time ever, I have to disagree with OnePlaner.

As far as I understand, you have your influences reversed.  The ball's initial direction is determined by the swing path - the club face at impact determines the side spin.  An out to in swing path with an open face at impact will cause a pull slice.  An out to in path with a closed face causes a pulled straight ball.  Simplify (and slow down) the dynamics by putting.  If you putt directly towards a target, but keep the face open; the ball will initially start out towards the target, but a slice spin will send it off course.

I don't quite understand how physics differs from a 1PS to a 2PS.  Perhaps someone could enlighten me.

lp



It's a fallacy that swing path determines initial direction of flight.  It assumes that the clubface is always square to the path.  It ain't necessarily so.    The clubface can be open, square, or closed to the path "at impact".   In any case, where the face is looking "at separation" is where the ball will start, regardless of path.

In fact, it's wrong to think of "impact" and "separation" as occuring simultaneously.  There is a phase when the ball is compressed on the clubface.  Spin is imparted to the ball during this compression phase.  Backspin is one thing that happens during compression.  Backspin makes the ball go up in the air.  

But sidespin is also imparted during compression.  Curvature in flight results from the net effect of slice spin imparted by an open face and hook spin imparted by a rotating clubface. 

Think of the ball as consisting of an inner hemisphere and an outer hemisphere.

Also, consider the fact that the golf swing is a "side swipe".  That is, it is an inclined arc from the side of the ball. 

Finally, consider the nature of the club itself.  It is a two-levered tool.  The clubhead is the second lever. 

Because the swing is from the side and the clubhead extends outward from the shaft, the clubface will necessarily rotate during the swing.  That is, the toe will revolve around the heel or the axis of the shaft.

During the compression phase in a typical golf swing, the clubhead comes from inside the target line and is open to the line at initial impact.  Thus, the "inner hemisphere of the ball is where initial impact occurs.  The clubface is slightly open to the line at that instant.  The combination of the open face and inside path compresses the inner hemisphere of the ball and imparts slice spin. 

However, the toe is rotating around the shaft axis while the ball is compressed on the clubface.  The rotating toe compresses the outer hemisphere and thus imparts hook spin on the ball.

The net effect of slice spin and hook spin imparted during compression will determine how the ball curves in the air.  If the net is zero, the ball will fly relatively straight in the direction the face it looking at separation.  If the slice spin prevails over the hook spin, the ball will curve to the right.  If the hook spin caused by clubface rotation prevails over the slice spin, the ball will curve to the left.

Now, that's what happens in a typical swing, but there are all sorts of combinations of swing paths, face angles, and degrees of clubface rotation.  The club doesn't necessarily come from inside the line.  It isn't necessarily open at initial impact.  The toe doesn't necessarily rotate around the shaft axis if the swinger "holds it off";  or, indeed, if the swinger "flips it" or "comes over it", the outer hemisphere can be the point of initial impact.

The old "Ball Flight Laws" are wrong because they fail to consider the dynamics of impact, compression, clubface rotation, and separation.



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:52am

 Wrong Wrong Wrong

 I'm standing at home plate. My swing path is right down first base chalk line. My clubface at impact is spot on second base........and you are trying to tell me my initial ball path won't be down first base line? And then my curvature won't be towards second base?  Wrong

 If your physics are correct , it wouldn't matter where a golfer ever lined up. You are placing too much emphasis on "seperation". To say that impact & seperation angle over-rides a 100 mph swing path for initial direction is fallacy

 

 



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Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

 Wrong Wrong Wrong

 I'm standing at home plate. My swing path is right down first base chalk line. My clubface at impact is spot on second base........and you are trying to tell me my initial ball path won't be down first base line? And then my curvature won't be towards second base?  Wrong

 If your physics are correct , it wouldn't matter where a golfer ever lined up. You are placing too much emphasis on "seperation". To say that impact & seperation angle over-rides a 100 mph swing path for initial direction is fallacy

 

 



Nope.  Apart from the fact that you're mixing metaphores, if your clubface is looking at second base when the ball leaves, that's where the ball will start.  No amount of shouting wrong will change that fact. 

Think about it, Randini.  The clubface can be open, square, or closed to the swing path at any point of the swing.  Where it is looking when the ball separates is where the ball will start.

Actually, while I am placing emphasis on separation, I'm also placing emphasis on clubface rotation and path.  It all works together to influence ball flight.

Furthermore, it doesn't especially matter where a golfer lines up so long as he/she has the right combination of alignment, path, face rotation, and timing to send the ball reasonably close to the intended target line.  Snead aligned his shots to the right and pulled the ball toward the target.  Trevino and Couples aiign to the left and push the ball toward the target.  It all works if you can hit the same shot every time, which, again, is a matter of repeating all of the dynamics of impact consistently.

Edited to correct Snead (he aimed right, not left) and Trevino/Couples (they aligned left, not right).  It was early in the AM when I wrote that. 

 


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 12:20pm

 It's emphasis , I don't shout.

 For every physics op. that states your version, I'll give you one stating my version, that the primary influence relative to the initial direction of flight is swing path.

 My ball doesn't start towards second, it starts down the chalk-line & curves towards second. It certainly doesn't curve towards second because of swing-path. It doesn't start down first as a result of seperation angle.

 I can be just as butt-headed as you    

 I'm done.........off to play



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Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

 


 I'm done.........off to play



That's a good thing.  Have a great round, and watch out for that face angle at separation. 


Posted By: GolfObsessed
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 2:16pm

interesting discussion.  I always heard and understood it was Swing Path where the ball starts and clubface angle where the ball will curve to. 

If I (feel like) I hit the inside 1/2 of the ball and let my hands turn over....it produces a ball that starts right and curves back to the left.  Maybe that's just what I feel though.

Maybe I have this wrong, but I would swear I hear pros say all the time that at address they'll angle the club face where they want the ball to finish, and align their feet where they want the ball to start.  ???



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2006 Hcp: 6.4
"I'm..... kind of a big deal." - Will Ferrell as Ron Burgundy in "Anchorman".


Posted By: doverall
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 2:50pm

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:


It's a fallacy that swing path determines initial direction of flight.  It assumes that the clubface is always square to the path.  It ain't necessarily so.    The clubface can be open, square, or closed to the path "at impact".   In any case, where the face is looking "at separation" is where the ball will start, regardless of path.

In fact, it's wrong to think of "impact" and "separation" as occuring 

Interesting oneplaner I think I understand where you are coming from now, correct me if i am wrong on my understandings.

Impact = The moment the club face first strikes the ball.

Compression = The ball compresses on the face of the club COR etc

Seperation - The moment the ball leaves the club face.

 

So to pick an analogy of a someone jumping onto a trampoline from a height:

Impact = momenet your feet hit the trampoline

Compression = the trampoline stretching down to take your force

Seperation = The moment your fett leave the trampoline

if I have everything correct I thinkg where people dont understand what you talking about is that most people consider impact to be what you call seperation.



Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 8:55pm

Hey-hey

It is a combination !

Try with a putter.  The main reason for the putt direction is by far the face angle at impact, but if the path missalignment gets to big, the ball will leave the putter face not normal to the putter face.

The hit with a golfball on the clubface is mostly elastic, but also .. hm .. what do you call it .. like a piece of clay.  A piece of clay would always be hit the direction the clubpath is going.  A really hard metal ball would always go the direction the clubface is pointing.  But the golfball hangs to the surface and is partly going the direction of the clubface and partly the path.

In my mind it makes sense that with small misalignments of the clubface, the ball mainly starts the direction of the swingpath and gets the sidespin according to the difference between the path and the clubface.

The more rotation you have on the clubface during the impact, the more friction you get between the golfball and the clubface.  this gives more backspinn and more stable flight.

I do not think it is correct that the ball leaves at the angle the clubface had when the ball leaves it.  The ball reacts to the clubface angle which is the mean value during the impact period. 

The lower speed, the more the ball leaves in the clubface direction because the compression is smaller and the friction is lower giving a more metal ball effect.

And the higher speed, the more compression, the longer contact, the more friction, the more backspinn and the more the ball starts along the club path.

The same applies to the loft angle and the launch angle.   You never get 56 degrees launch angle even when you hit the SW flush !



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Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:40pm

The rotation of the clubface through impact is minimal, so lets get that out of the equation now.  We are talking about microseconds of contact between clubface and ball - you can't (or shouldn't) be rotating the clubface enough to impart spin through the impact zone.

OnePlaner - Are you telling us that a perfectly aligned (in to in) swing plane with an open face at impact will result in hook?  Your logic says that this ball (for a right handed golfer) would start to the right and draw back down the center of the fairway.  I can't see it.  There is no doubt in my mind that this ball starts along the target line and slices to the right.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 10:55pm
Originally posted by GolfObsessed GolfObsessed wrote:

interesting discussion.  I always heard and understood it was Swing Path where the ball starts and clubface angle where the ball will curve to. 

If I (feel like) I hit the inside 1/2 of the ball and let my hands turn over....it produces a ball that starts right and curves back to the left.  Maybe that's just what I feel though.

Maybe I have this wrong, but I would swear I hear pros say all the time that at address they'll angle the club face where they want the ball to finish, and align their feet where they want the ball to start.  ???



The ball that starts right and curves back to the left is the example I ofthen use to prove my point, but I add one other factor to it.   The divot points left.  Strong players hit that shot often.  It's the "draw".  Starts right, curves left, divot points left.  How is that shot possible if path sets the initial direction of flight?

Here's what happens when you hit that shot.  The path is in-to-in.  That's why the divot points left.  The ball starts right because the face is slightly open at separation.  It curves to the left because the toe rotates around the shaft axis and compresses the outer hemisphere more than enough to offset the slice spin from the open face at separation.

Again, path doesn't determine initial direction of flight.  The clubface can be open, speare, or closed relative to the path at separation.   The ball always jumps off the face at 90 degrees to the face angle, regardless of path.  Think about this one.  The path is out-to-in with an open face at separation.  Will the ball start left and slice back to the right, or will it start right and go farther right?  It's the latter. 

On your other point about the pros aligning the clubface where they want the ball to go and their bodies where they want the ball to start, they do that only when they want to hit a big hook or slice around a tree or some obstacle, not a draw or fade.  They are pre-setting which hemisphere of the ball they want to compress the most.   When they want to hit a draw, they add clubface rotation through impact.  When they want to hit a fade, they hold off the clubface rotation through impact.  They use the clubface to curve the ball with the bend of the fairway or in to left and right pin locations.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 11:04pm

 wow.................hmmmm............Golf is really confusing.......and complicated. However, I've seen One Planer's posts, and he knows his stuff. No arguing here. But....................

Micah



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 11:05pm
Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:


It's a fallacy that swing path determines initial direction of flight.  It assumes that the clubface is always square to the path.  It ain't necessarily so.    The clubface can be open, square, or closed to the path "at impact".   In any case, where the face is looking "at separation" is where the ball will start, regardless of path.

In fact, it's wrong to think of "impact" and "separation" as occuring 

Interesting oneplaner I think I understand where you are coming from now, correct me if i am wrong on my understandings.

Impact = The moment the club face first strikes the ball.

Compression = The ball compresses on the face of the club COR etc

Seperation - The moment the ball leaves the club face.

 

So to pick an analogy of a someone jumping onto a trampoline from a height:

Impact = momenet your feet hit the trampoline

Compression = the trampoline stretching down to take your force

Seperation = The moment your fett leave the trampoline

if I have everything correct I thinkg where people dont understand what you talking about is that most people consider impact to be what you call seperation.



You're exactly right, Dover, except your trapoline comparison is just slightly off.  There may be some compression of the clubface on newer drivers, but it is generally understood that the ball is what gets compressed, at least in terms of any effect on ball spin.  You're also right in saying that many people think that impact and separation are so cluse together in terms of elapsed time that the compression phase isn't significant.  They just haven't thought about the dynamics of the collision of a rotating clubface with an elastic spheroid. 


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 21 June 2006 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

The rotation of the clubface through impact is minimal, so lets get that out of the equation now.  We are talking about microseconds of contact between clubface and ball - you can't (or shouldn't) be rotating the clubface enough to impart spin through the impact zone.

Really?  Then how is it possible for the ball to leave the clubface with backspin and sidespin in one direction or another?  Why does the ball go up?  Why does it curve in the air?


OnePlaner - Are you telling us that a perfectly aligned (in to in) swing plane with an open face at impact will result in hook?  Your logic says that this ball (for a right handed golfer) would start to the right and draw back down the center of the fairway.  I can't see it.  There is no doubt in my mind that this ball starts along the target line and slices to the right.

Lpratt, I'm telling you that the shot that starts to the right of the target line and draws back to the left from an in-to-in path is the result of an open face at separation and a rotating (closing) clubface during the compression phase..  It's not a hook, it's a draw.  It's perfectly ok with me if you want to deny that there are any dynamics going on while the ball is compressed and the clubface is rotating.  It's your choice.



Posted By: Skully
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:25am
Originally posted by mpastula@att.ne mpastula@att.ne wrote:

 wow.................hmmmm............Golf is really confusing.......and complicated. However, I've seen One Planer's posts, and he knows his stuff. No arguing here. But....................

Micah



 It's not any more complicated than you want to make it. Jack and Annika both open their stance for a fade and close it for a draw. I'm not arguing with 1plner either, but different approaches work for different people. Those 2 examples are also 2 of the best ball strikers to ever play the game so It's safe to say that they can keep their clubface pretty square to their lines through impact.




Posted By: jricci
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:57am
I think these arguments from a physics point of view are too complex.

If the clubface is square to the path at impact the intial direction can only reflect the path of the club at impact.  So inside out swing will produce an outside swing path and vice versa.

If the face is open at impact the initial ball flight will be impacted by the face angle in two ways. 

The open face will cause the ball to start more to the outside

The open face will impart sidespin which will cause the ball to slice

The loft of the club imparts only topspin that reduces the impact of sidespin.
Hence more slices with drivers, pulls with wedges

Thus if the ball starts in, slices right the swing path was probably out to in, with an open face.  If the face had not been open, the same swing would cause a straight pull. 

Doesnt seem that complicated to me.






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jr


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 1:32am

 This is getting  silly. I did a little  re-search tonight when I got in & for every person like 1P , there are 4 the other way. That doesn't really matter.

 I spoke to a physics guy at FSU today & he says both sides have elements of truth. We all know that. His final was swing-path was primary relative to initial direction..........not final destination. He also stated the faster the swing-speed , more  path influence. He mentioned that a golf ball can have only ONE type of spin at a time..............like you can't have back-spin & sidespin at the same time. HHHmmmmm. Interesting...........

  also said it takes the average tour player 18-24 inches to rotate the clubface through the impact zone. I suppose that's the "foot on either side of the ball" we have heard about.

 I think 1p is all wrong on this. If swingpath doesn't dictate initial line of flight what the hell difference does it make how we line up. Just make sure the face angle is right.............lol........ why set up open or closed? Wouldn't matter.......... & 1 your reference about the "divot pointing left" thing proves nothing ............ball is hit first and is long gone, then the divot.

 I would love to see someone hit a ball that starts right of target & draws back with an open face at seperation.......lol



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Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 2:05am

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Really?  Then how is it possible for the ball to leave the clubface with backspin and sidespin in one direction or another?  Why does the ball go up?  Why does it curve in the air?

Assuming the path is straight down the target line for the following example:

The ball spins in the direction that the face is pointing at impact - the end!

It has back spin, which curves it up, because the loft of the face is facing upward.

 It has hook (or draw) spin if the face is closed at impact (thru separation) and slice (or fade) spin if the face is open at impact (thru separation).

I'm saying impact "thru separation" because the ball contacts the club face for 0.00045 seconds - I am pretty sure that you aren't changing the face angle too much in that amount of time.  If your clubhead speed was 150 mph, your club would move 3 centimeter or just over an inch in .00045 seconds.  I'm not denying that rotation is happening, I am telling you that the rotation has minimal effects on side spin.  If it had more significant effects, as you contend, it would be difficult to remain even remotely consistent.  It is nearly impossible to repeatedly manipulate the clubface at impact.  That is what make the 1PS so nice - you don't consciously manipulate the club face throughout the downswing.  It remains fairly square throughout the impact zone.

lpratt



Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 2:13am

Randini, you are the voice of reason.  As I stated earlier in the post, OnePlaner is usually full of good information, but this is crazy talk - science doesn't lie.  I can't even believe this is the same OnePlaner who gave me so many useful nuggets in the past. 

I agree that swing speed is also a component in the equation.  The slower the swing..i.e. a putt, the more club face determines initial direction; the faster the swing, the more swing path determines initial direction.



Posted By: dave.
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 4:33am
Hogan faded the ball off a closed stance and an in to out to in swing path.

The two things,face angle at impact and swing path are so interelated you can't really separate them.imho


Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 4:49am

The actual spin of the ball can be decomposed into pure backspinn and pure sidespinn.  The axis of rotation on a ball that slices to the right is no longer horizontal, but is tilted clockwise seen from behind. It tries to climb a tilted trajectory, but since gravitation will never tilt its force to make the ball go where you aimed it, it will drop down right of your target.  The same happens when hitting from a lie where the ball is below your feet.

The principal of superposition can be used so in calculations one could use dual spin of the ball.

Then aerodynamics makes it even harder to understand the ball flight and why the slice comes so late in the trajectory...



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: doverall
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 5:04am
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

The rotation of the clubface through impact is minimal, so lets get that out of the equation now.  We are talking about microseconds of contact between clubface and ball - you can't (or shouldn't) be rotating the clubface enough to impart spin through the impact zone.

Really?  Then how is it possible for the ball to leave the clubface with backspin and sidespin in one direction or another?  Why does the ball go up?  Why does it curve in the air?


OnePlaner - Are you telling us that a perfectly aligned (in to in) swing plane with an open face at impact will result in hook?  Your logic says that this ball (for a right handed golfer) would start to the right and draw back down the center of the fairway.  I can't see it.  There is no doubt in my mind that this ball starts along the target line and slices to the right.

Lpratt, I'm telling you that the shot that starts to the right of the target line and draws back to the left from an in-to-in path is the result of an open face at separation and a rotating (closing) clubface during the compression phase..  It's not a hook, it's a draw.  It's perfectly ok with me if you want to deny that there are any dynamics going on while the ball is compressed and the clubface is rotating.  It's your choice.



I cant agree with this, how can the face be open at seperation but be rotating(closing) during compression. I thought the sequence was Impact->Compression->Seperation ???


Posted By: doverall
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 5:09am
Originally posted by dave. dave. wrote:

Hogan faded the ball off a closed stance and an in to out to in swing path.

The two things,face angle at impact and swing path are so interelated you can't really separate them.imho


I think you will find that hogan had a closed stance but open shoulder, and your swing path most closely follow yoru should line. Therefore at impact his face is open to his swing path thereby creating the face, ball starts left because of swing path and fades because of face angle to the path at seperation.


Posted By: dave.
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 9:12am
Er,I think thats what I meant,but tbh,its now going over my head.




Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 9:28am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

<snip>

 I spoke to a physics guy at FSU today & he says both sides have elements of truth. We all know that. His final was swing-path was primary relative to initial direction..........not final destination. He also stated the faster the swing-speed , more  path influence. He mentioned that a golf ball can have only ONE type of spin at a time..............like you can't have back-spin & sidespin at the same time. HHHmmmmm. Interesting...........

This discussion is fun.  It always elicits the same incredulous responses.

1.  The face doesn't rotate through impact.
2.  Impact happens so fast it's impossibe to influence what happens.

Now we have the "testimony of an expert in the field".   He's a "physics guy" -- a real scientist -- so he can't possibly be wrong.  Well, my physics guy says just the opposite of your physics guy.  He's telling me than the ball leaves the face at 90 degrees to where the face is pointing and that will always be the initial direction of flight.

 also said it takes the average tour player 18-24 inches to rotate the clubface through the impact zone. I suppose that's the "foot on either side of the ball" we have heard about.

But in a previous post you said something like, "The face doesn't rotate through impact. so let's get that out of the way right now."  Are we to assume that the player starts rotating the face when it is 12 inches from the ball, stops rotating it at impact/compression, and then resumes rotating it for 12 inches after separation?   Of course not.  Your "physics guy" is right in this instance. The clubface is constantly rotating relative to the target line from the beginning of the swing to the finish.  It is geometrically inevitable.  The golf swing is a "side-on" motion performed with a "two-levered tool".  The toe travels farther and faster than the bottom of the shaft throughout the swing.  That's a given.  The other given is that the ball compresses at impact and rebounds off the face at separation.  The flight of the ball is determined in that small fraction of a second when the ball is on the face of the club.  It's simply illogical to assert that it happens too fast to have any consequence.  It is the only thing of consequence.  It is the moment of truth

 I think 1p is all wrong on this. If swingpath doesn't dictate initial line of flight what the hell difference does it make how we line up. Just make sure the face angle is right.............lol........ why set up open or closed? Wouldn't matter..........

Well, in fact it doesn't really matter.  As I said previously, Snead aligned to the right and pulled the ball toward the target.  Trevino aligns to the left and pushes the ball toward the target.  If you get the face angle right durng the moment of truth, it doesn't matter at all......lol.....so long as you can do it repetitively.

& 1 your reference about the "divot pointing left" thing proves nothing ............ball is hit first and is long gone, then the divot.

But a proper divot starts very close to the front of the ball.  If it points left of the target line, it indicates that the clubhead was on the target line at impact and no longer traveling in-to-out.  But the clubface can be open, square, or closed to the line and the path at that instant.  That will determine the initial direction of flight.  How the ball is compressed while the clubface is rotating will detirmine the prevailing axis to spin and hence how the ball will curve in flight.

 I would love to see someone hit a ball that starts right of target & draws back with an open face at seperation.......lol

Did you watch the US Open last week?  That shot was hit thousands of times if you add in all the shots hit on the range......lol.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 9:49am
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:



<snip>

I'm saying impact "thru separation" because the ball contacts the club face for 0.00045 seconds - I am pretty sure that you aren't changing the face angle too much in that amount of time. 

It doesn't take much.  Impact is a pretty violent event from the balls point of view.

If your clubhead speed was 150 mph, your club would move 3 centimeter or just over an inch in .00045 seconds.  I'm not denying that rotation is happening, I am telling you that the rotation has minimal effects on side spin. 

Average swing speeds even among tour players aren't anywhere remotely near 150 mph, but it doesn't really matter.  In fact, the higher the swing speed, the more the effect of the compression phase.  More important is the speed of the toe relative to the speed at the bottom of the shaft.  That differential is very significant in terms of how the ball is compressed.  It adds leverage to the shot.  Toe speed can be significantly higher than shaft speed for stronger players.

If it had more significant effects, as you contend, it would be difficult to remain even remotely consistent.  It is nearly impossible to repeatedly manipulate the clubface at impact.  That is what make the 1PS so nice - you don't consciously manipulate the club face throughout the downswing.  It remains fairly square throughout the impact zone.

I'm not talking about "manipulating the clubface" at impact.  I'm describing the dynamics of impact and why the ball does what it does when it leaves the clubface.

lpratt



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:01am
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

Randini, you are the voice of reason.  As I stated earlier in the post, OnePlaner is usually full of good information, but this is crazy talk - science doesn't lie.  I can't even believe this is the same OnePlaner who gave me so many useful nuggets in the past. 

I agree that swing speed is also a component in the equation.  The slower the swing..i.e. a putt, the more club face determines initial direction; the faster the swing, the more swing path determines initial direction.



I'm in a position rather like Galileo when he proposed that Copernicus' heliocentric theory of the universe was right..  I'm challenging the age-old ball flight rules.  You and Randini are the Inquisition.   Unlike Galileo, I will not relent. 

 


Posted By: ben1
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:05am

Tiger Woods stated in a recent article, "A lot of it is in the takeaway and making sure I've got enough width and room coming down," Woods explains. "If I get the takeaway with the club with its true loft on the proper angle, it's cake coming down. When I get it off, then obviously I've got to make compensation with my hands on the way down."

Can anyone define "the clubface with its true loft on the proper angle"?

It would seem to me as the shaft is rotating back during the takeaway along the inclined "one angled Haney plane", that the clubface is also rotating (slightly more) as it moves along its on  outward arc in relationship to the shaft. If this is correct, then the clubface would be slightly open (more loft) in relation to the shaft at Tiger's focal takeaway position.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:08am
Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

The actual spin of the ball can be decomposed into pure backspinn and pure sidespinn.  The axis of rotation on a ball that slices to the right is no longer horizontal, but is tilted clockwise seen from behind. It tries to climb a tilted trajectory, but since gravitation will never tilt its force to make the ball go where you aimed it, it will drop down right of your target.  The same happens when hitting from a lie where the ball is below your feet.

The principal of superposition can be used so in calculations one could use dual spin of the ball.

Then aerodynamics makes it even harder to understand the ball flight and why the slice comes so late in the trajectory...



You're exactly right, Jon.  The ball curves in the air because of the axis of spin.  There is always backspin, but "sidespin" is the result of a tilted axis.  If it's tilted to the right, the ball curves right.  If it's tilted to the left, the ball curves left.  What I'm saying is that the axis gets tilted during the compression phase.  An open face at initial impact tilts the axis to the right.  The rotating clubface tilts the axis to the left.  One or the other will have prevailed if the ball curves in flight.



Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:14am

OnePlaner

How about my golf ball of clay.  Will that also leave in the direction of the clubface ?

I have read Dave pelz.  He has experimented with putting and direction.  He says that it is mainly caused by the clubface, and to some degree on the path.

I have tested this myself. If the path is too much out to in, I will slightly pull the putt even if the clubface is square to target.

And the reason is clear.  The golf ball is not purely elastic.  A perfectly elastic collision will act like a pure reflection with no loss of energy.  Then I agree with you, but the golf ball is compressed, some energy is lost in heat and in friction.  The golf ball is wrapped over a bigger part of the clubface and reacts to a certain degree to the path and a certain degree to the clubface angle.

The same applies to the loft and launch angle.  We try to hit down on the ball to get the launch angle lower than the loft angle and get spin on the ball.  A purfectly elastic hit with a horisontal angle of attack would send the ball at the exact angle of the club loft.  But all of us hit the golf ball lower than that...

It is also the same with the driver and the centre of gravity.  Tell me how the launch angle from a driver can be higher than the angle of attack + the loft ?  This is the basis for long drives today.  The new Nike Driver is made with a very low centre of gravity to get the ball airborne with less spinn.  It is the same with the rescues/hybrids.  They are made to give high launch angles easily due to the weight distribution.

I have one truth that I live by, and that is nothing is black or white, it is somewhere between.  This never fails me.  Nothing is pure truth, there is always a but.

The golf ball spinn, launch angle and speed is determined by more factors than clubface angle and club path.  It is a function of path, clubface angle, angle of attack, golf ball elasticity, clubhead speed, club weight distribution, sweet spot and then gear effect, friction, golfball cover softness, temperature, etc, etc.

A simple truth is always wrong is my believe.Wink

 



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:16am
Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:


Lpratt, I'm telling you that the shot that starts to the right of the target line and draws back to the left from an in-to-in path is the result of an open face at separation and a rotating (closing) clubface during the compression phase..  It's not a hook, it's a draw.  It's perfectly ok with me if you want to deny that there are any dynamics going on while the ball is compressed and the clubface is rotating.  It's your choice.



I cant agree with this, how can the face be open at seperation but be rotating(closing) during compression. I thought the sequence was Impact->Compression->Seperation ???
[/QUOTE]

That is the sequence, Doverall.  I don't undertand your question.  The face can be rotatiing (closing) but the ball can still leave before the rotation squares or closes the face.  In that case, the ball would leave to the right of the path.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:39am
Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

OnePlaner

How about my golf ball of clay.  Will that also leave in the direction of the clubface ?

Yes, I believe it would.  Why wouldn't it?

I have read Dave pelz.  He has experimented with putting and direction.  He says that it is mainly caused by the clubface, and to some degree on the path.

Oh dear.  Now I have to disagree with the world's foremost putting expert.  Think about a pool shot.  if the queball strikes the object ball at the right point, the object ball will go in the pocket.  The putter face is the queball, the golf ball is the object ball, and the hole is the pocket.  If the putter strikes the ball at the right point on the surface of the ball, the ball will go in the hole if the putter face is square to that point.  The path can be slightly in-to-out or out-to-in.  The ball will still go along the intended line.


I have tested this myself. If the path is too much out to in, I will slightly pull the putt even if the clubface is square to target.

And the reason is clear.  The golf ball is not purely elastic.  A perfectly elastic collision will act like a pure reflection with no loss of energy.  Then I agree with you, but the golf ball is compressed, some energy is lost in heat and in friction.  The golf ball is wrapped over a bigger part of the clubface and reacts to a certain degree to the path and a certain degree to the clubface angle.

The same applies to the loft and launch angle.  We try to hit down on the ball to get the launch angle lower than the loft angle and get spin on the ball.  A purfectly elastic hit with a horisontal angle of attack would send the ball at the exact angle of the club loft.  But all of us hit the golf ball lower than that...

It is also the same with the driver and the centre of gravity.  Tell me how the launch angle from a driver can be higher than the angle of attack + the loft ?  This is the basis for long drives today.  The new Nike Driver is made with a very low centre of gravity to get the ball airborne with less spinn.  It is the same with the rescues/hybrids.  They are made to give high launch angles easily due to the weight distribution.

I have one truth that I live by, and that is nothing is black or white, it is somewhere between.  This never fails me.  Nothing is pure truth, there is always a but.

The golf ball spinn, launch angle and speed is determined by more factors than clubface angle and club path.  It is a function of path, clubface angle, angle of attack, golf ball elasticity, clubhead speed, club weight distribution, sweet spot and then gear effect, friction, golfball cover softness, temperature, etc, etc.

Yes, all of that plus clubface rotation.

A simple truth is always wrong is my believe.Wink

Yes.  That's exactly why the old ball flight rules are wrong.  They are too simple for something so dynamic as the collision between the clubhead and the ball.  There's a lot more going on than meets the eye. 

 



Posted By: dave.
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 11:07am
Wow,my heads just blown up,this thread has lobotomised me,anyone got an aspirin?

This thread reminds of the car geeks who go on about tyres and contact patches,and slip angles and all that guff.Just go faster I say.


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:05pm

OnePlaner, my point with giving stats for a 150 mph swing speed was basically to tell you (and all) that a ball is in contact with the face for 3 cm MAX.  This might be the case for Tiger Woods - for everyone else this time is less.  I can guarantee that in less than 3 cm of the swing arc - the face is essentially, not rotating.  The compression of the golf ball (and groves on the face) allow the club face to impart spin (sort of like jonag's ball of clay).

OnePlaner, this is my last attempt to convert you.  For the following example assume a 3 wood with a perfectly straight (aligned) swing plane and a center aligned club face through impact. 

The ball starts in a slight upward direction from the tee mostly because the clubhead is going slightly upward - correct? 

The ball the ball then attempts, with some success to fight gravity curve upward (because of the backspin on the ball) right?

If you agreed with both statements above, then let me summarize: the ball started in the direction the club head was traveling and curved the direction that the face was looking (up - due to the loft). 

As I earlier stated, this is my last attempt to enlighten you -   unless I can't help myself. 

Believe me One Planer, I would love for you to be right on this topic.  I wish that the laws of physics (in my world) were as they are in your world - I would have a wonderful ball flight starting to the right and drawing back towards the center of the fairway.   

Thanks for the standing up to the inquisition and answering everyone's barrages One Planer.  Whether or not you are correct - you are very determined.  You will (if you haven't already) succeed in this game with that determination.  I will still respect most of what you say!

lpratt



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:13pm

Originally posted by dave. dave. wrote:

Wow,my heads just blown up,this thread has lobotomised me,anyone got an aspirin?

This thread reminds of the car geeks who go on about tyres and contact patches,and slip angles and all that guff.Just go faster I say.

Yep....I totally agree. Any extra asprin pass it over this way.

Micah



Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:25pm

Just to be clear - this is where I stand.

Initial direction of the ball is unfluenced by swing plane and some club face direction, depending on swing speed and amount of misalignment.  The faster the swing speed, the more initial direction is influenced by swing plane.  But if the face is severely opened or closed, it will certainly effect the initial direction.  I guess I'm saying that technically, both swing plane and club face effect the initial direction of flight.

Direction of spin imparted on the ball is nearly all influenced by the direction the face is looking at impact.  This is where I must disagree with OnePlaner.  An open face at impact will cause a higher trajectory and a slice (or fade depending on magnitude).  A closed face will cause a lower trajectory and a hook (or draw depending on magnitude).



Posted By: GolfObsessed
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:29pm

I'm going dizzy as well

So, One Planer, just to simplify: you are saying that if I hit a ball and it immediately starts left, it is primarily because of a closed club face as opposed to swing path?

So, if you want to draw the ball for example, at address, is it your contention that you should aim the club face where you want the ball to START, as opposed to end up?



-------------
2006 Hcp: 6.4
"I'm..... kind of a big deal." - Will Ferrell as Ron Burgundy in "Anchorman".


Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

OnePlaner

How about my golf ball of clay.  Will that also leave in the direction of the clubface ?

Yes, I believe it would.  Why wouldn't it?

I have read Dave pelz.  He has experimented with putting and direction.  He says that it is mainly caused by the clubface, and to some degree on the path.

Oh dear.  Now I have to disagree with the world's foremost putting expert.  Think about a pool shot.  if the queball strikes the object ball at the right point, the object ball will go in the pocket.  The putter face is the queball, the golf ball is the object ball, and the hole is the pocket.  If the putter strikes the ball at the right point on the surface of the ball, the ball will go in the hole if the putter face is square to that point.  The path can be slightly in-to-out or out-to-in.  The ball will still go along the intended line.


 

Well, a soft clay ball will stick to the clubhead and follow it around really, so its a bad example, but the less elastic and the more the friction between the clubhead and the ball, the more it will be affected by the direction of the club force.  The club force is along the path.

Think of tennis.  If a tennis player where forced to play with a marble and a rock hard wooden racket, he would never curve the ball, never be able to send a stop ball.  He would send the marble the direction of the racket face.

OK, the less clubhead speed, the more you are right, but the higher speed, the more the path contributes. 

I have picked up the book "Search for the perfect swing" by Alastair Cochran and John Stobbs and what I learned during my master of sience education and mechanics course:

Now, first, forget about loft to make this one-dimensional, or better lets say we hit a 0 loft driver !

When the club is hit with a clubhead that is square to the path, the ball will feel one unified force exactly along the path.  It goes straight according to the path since the rebound force (=clubface direction) is exactly the same direction as the path.

When hit with a clubhead open to the path, the frictional force will work along the clubface surface 90 degrees to the angle of the clubface (pointing towards your feet).  The other main force in the equation is the rebound force along the clubface direction.

We have then two forces, one 90 degrees to the clubface and one in the clubface direction.  The resultant force is to the left the clubface direction.  The less friction, the less 90 degrees frictional force and the less difference between ball and clubhead direction.  And the more friction, the more the ball will go along the path.

If looking at a square 5iron (30deg loft) clubhead hitting a ball, the launch angle was found to be 27 degrees at 100mph clubhead speed.  This is a very high speed, but for a driver at 30 degrees loft, hit flush, one can expect 3 degrees less effective loft due to the path direction.  Now, 30 degrees loft is the same as 30 degrees open clubface and that is much.  The book also looked at higher lofted and lower lofted clubs.  A 10 degrees driver gave 8 degrees effective loft.

Well, this tells me that OnePlaner are the one of us that is most correct.  The ball is traveling mainly and approx 80% in the direction of the clubface and only 20% in the direction of the path, with sidespin curving it well back and beyond the direction of the clubface.

I took the low risk bet and said it was somewhere in between Embarrassed

Dave pelz found that the clubhead face on putts contributes 83% of the direction.

So aiming the clubface at the target and the shoulders to the left to fade it to your target will not work. You need to aim the shoulders left of the target and aim the clubhead somewhere between the shoulder line and the target line depending on loft, wind and moist.  Loft gives you more backspin and less effect of the sidespinn, wind makes the sidespinn climb the wind sideways and exaggerates the fade or draw and the moist changes the friction and thereby the amount of sidespin.

The softer the shot the more you need to aim the clubface at your target since the sidespinn will be small.

Since both pelz and the other book says approx 20% effect by path, I guess this is the number to remember.  I you think the sidespinn will not curve the ball in the air, aim your clubface almost at the target.  The more the sidespinn will curve the ball the less the clubface must be aimed towards the target rather than the path. 



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 12:56pm

Have to correct myself:

Since both pelz and the other book says approx 20% effect by path, I guess this is the number to remember.  If you think the sidespinn will not curve the ball in the air, aim your clubface at the target or even beyond the target.  The more the sidespinn will curve the ball the more the clubface must be aimed towards the shoulder line rather than the target. 



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 3:28pm
I haven't posted here in awhile, but I found this interesting.

I agree with OnePlaner!  The original golf ball flight laws written by Dr. Garry Wiren are wrong! 

Here is the problem I had a hard time getting over:  The target line is only a reference point.  In other words, the target line cannot affect the ball in any way whatsoever.  What matters to the balls curvature, or lack there of, is the relationship between the path the and the face.  If the path is from the inside and the face is square to the path, (at separation) we get a push.  I think we all agree on this one, right?  But lets get a little more specific.  If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*.  This is why you have to disregard the target line, except as a reference point to the ball flight.  If the face had been square to the target line, and the path from the inside the ball would have started right at the target, but turned left of the target due to the inside path, and closed clubface.

PS.  I have all but lost my slice since applying these rules to my swing!


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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 3:52pm

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

 If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*. 

I believe this line contradicts OnePlaner because you are indicating that a closed face causes a draw. 

You are correct that target line means nothing - swing line is the important thing.

lpratt

 



Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 3:57pm
A closed face will always give a draw if the definition for a square face is square to the path.  At what direction the draw will start is the real question.

-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 5:57pm
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

 If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*. 

I believe this line contradicts OnePlaner because you are indicating that a closed face causes a draw. 

You are correct that target line means nothing - swing line is the important thing.

lpratt

 


Closed to what is the question!

The clubface is open to the target line, not to the swing path.  I think OnePlaner and I are saying the same thing, just in a different way.  To hit a draw that starts right of the target line but draws back to center, the clubface has to be open to the target line.  The face starts the ball rightof the target line, and the path influences the curve back to the target line.

Wiren says the inside path starts the ball right and the square to the target line face brings it back.  But imagine if the clubface gets closed to the target line with an inside path.  How would the ball go right first?


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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

[QUOTE=One Planer] [QUOTE=jonag]

Well, this tells me that OnePlaner are the one of us that is most correct.  The ball is traveling mainly and approx 80% in the direction of the clubface and only 20% in the direction of the path, with sidespin curving it well back and beyond the direction of the clubface.

I took the low risk bet and said it was somewhere in between Embarrassed



Thank you for saying One Planer is right, Jon Arne.    But I still say the ball leaves at 90 degrees to the clubface angle.  Of course the ball also starts forward.  I've seen some bad shots and hit my share myself, but I've never seen a shot start backwards. 



Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:14pm

OP,

Just for the record, I HAVE seen a shot start backwards! This was awesome, listen to this. Last year I was playing Grey Hawk in Scottsdale when I get paired with this very high handicap golfer who was very nervous to be playing with me for some reason. On one hole, he had the ball above his feet in the fairway on a par five and pulled out his three wood, which was completely the wrong play. This is like fourth or fifth hole and I've spent the past hour trying to help him find all his tee shots and now he pulls a three wood from like 260 with the ball a foot above his feet. As I take cover behind my cart, he makes this wild swing and tops the ball and I kid you not, the freaking thing goes backwards 10 yards and then rolls down the slope for a total distance of about -15 yards on the shot. I couldn't help but laugh, it was like seeing lightning strike the same place twice! I will likely never see that type of shot again, it was incredible! The thing never even thought about going forward, his ball had had enough abuse and I guess was heading back to the clubhouse for a drink.



-------------
http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by GolfObsessed GolfObsessed wrote:


I'm going dizzy as well


So, One Planer, just to simplify: you are saying that if I hit a ball and it immediately starts left, it is primarily because of a closed club face as opposed to swing path?

Yes, GO, exactly.  If the clubface is closed when the ball separates, the ball will start left even if the path is in-to-out.  It will probably hook farther to the left, also.

So, if you want to draw the ball for example, at address, is it your contention that you should aim the club face where you want the ball to START, as opposed to end up?

Well, there are three ways to draw the ball.  One is to align the clubface where you want the ball to go and your body where you want the ball to start.  Another is to add more rotation to the clubface as you swing through impact, possibly even strenthening your grip.  The third is to keep the clubface more closed to the path going back and coming down.



Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

[QUOTE=One Planer] [QUOTE=jonag]

Well, this tells me that OnePlaner are the one of us that is most correct.  The ball is traveling mainly and approx 80% in the direction of the clubface and only 20% in the direction of the path, with sidespin curving it well back and beyond the direction of the clubface.

I took the low risk bet and said it was somewhere in between Embarrassed



Thank you for saying One Planer is right, Jon Arne.    But I still say the ball leaves at 90 degrees to the clubface angle.  Of course the ball also starts forward.  I've seen some bad shots and hit my share myself, but I've never seen a shot start backwards. 

 

I am refering to the golf scientific studies I have found on this so I would give some room for this to be true.  But we are talking about 4 times more effect by the clubhead rather than the path, so in practic life you will hardly notice it.

I agree with you 80%

The most spectacular shot I have made is quite normal, but it was a wood, left to right, lot of spinn, low launch angle.  Then you get a weird spiral.  Steep out to in path with a slightly open clubface is what i have learned today.Embarrassed

By the way, the knowledge of reading ball-flight vs swing is the most important knowledge in order to self improve



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

I haven't posted here in awhile, but I found this interesting.

I agree with OnePlaner!  The original golf ball flight laws written by Dr. Garry Wiren are wrong! 

Here is the problem I had a hard time getting over:  The target line is only a reference point.  In other words, the target line cannot affect the ball in any way whatsoever.  What matters to the balls curvature, or lack there of, is the relationship between the path the and the face.  If the path is from the inside and the face is square to the path, (at separation) we get a push.  I think we all agree on this one, right?  But lets get a little more specific.  If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*.  This is why you have to disregard the target line, except as a reference point to the ball flight.  If the face had been square to the target line, and the path from the inside the ball would have started right at the target, but turned left of the target due to the inside path, and closed clubface.

PS.  I have all but lost my slice since applying these rules to my swing!


Well done, 01, and thanks for agreeing with me.  I would have put it as follows  At initial impact, the face is typically open, let's say by 4* to the path, for this example..  Now, during compression, the clubface has rotated such that it is still open by 1* at separation.  Hence, the ball starts slightly to the right of the target line.  However, during compression, the toe has roated by 3* up to the point of separation.  The 3* of "face hook" will offset the 1* or open face at separation, and this will cause the ball to draw back to the left in flight.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

OP,

Just for the record, I HAVE seen a shot start backwards! This was awesome, listen to this. Last year I was playing Grey Hawk in Scottsdale when I get paired with this very high handicap golfer who was very nervous to be playing with me for some reason. On one hole, he had the ball above his feet in the fairway on a par five and pulled out his three wood, which was completely the wrong play. This is like fourth or fifth hole and I've spent the past hour trying to help him find all his tee shots and now he pulls a three wood from like 260 with the ball a foot above his feet. As I take cover behind my cart, he makes this wild swing and tops the ball and I kid you not, the freaking thing goes backwards 10 yards and then rolls down the slope for a total distance of about -15 yards on the shot. I couldn't help but laugh, it was like seeing lightning strike the same place twice! I will likely never see that type of shot again, it was incredible! The thing never even thought about going forward, his ball had had enough abuse and I guess was heading back to the clubhouse for a drink.



ROFLOL.  It has to be the first and only time it has ever happened.  I have seen a couple of shots hit so far off the heel that the ball goes between the feet, but it still goes a little bit forward. 


Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

I haven't posted here in awhile, but I found this interesting.

I agree with OnePlaner!  The original golf ball flight laws written by Dr. Garry Wiren are wrong! 

Here is the problem I had a hard time getting over:  The target line is only a reference point.  In other words, the target line cannot affect the ball in any way whatsoever.  What matters to the balls curvature, or lack there of, is the relationship between the path the and the face.  If the path is from the inside and the face is square to the path, (at separation) we get a push.  I think we all agree on this one, right?  But lets get a little more specific.  If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*.  This is why you have to disregard the target line, except as a reference point to the ball flight.  If the face had been square to the target line, and the path from the inside the ball would have started right at the target, but turned left of the target due to the inside path, and closed clubface.

PS.  I have all but lost my slice since applying these rules to my swing!


Well done, 01, and thanks for agreeing with me.  I would have put it as follows  At initial impact, the face is typically open, let's say by 4* to the path, for this example..  Now, during compression, the clubface has rotated such that it is still open by 1* at separation.  Hence, the ball starts slightly to the right of the target line.  However, during compression, the toe has roated by 3* up to the point of separation.  The 3* of "face hook" will offset the 1* or open face at separation, and this will cause the ball to draw back to the left in flight.

 


And I agree.  I was only attempting to show that the clubface can be open to the target line and closed to the path.

I also agree that it is important to learn the ball flight laws if you are attempting to self teach.  If you understand the laws incorrectly you will misdiagnose your swing.


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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

OP,

Just for the record, I HAVE seen a shot start backwards! This was awesome, listen to this. Last year I was playing Grey Hawk in Scottsdale when I get paired with this very high handicap golfer who was very nervous to be playing with me for some reason. On one hole, he had the ball above his feet in the fairway on a par five and pulled out his three wood, which was completely the wrong play. This is like fourth or fifth hole and I've spent the past hour trying to help him find all his tee shots and now he pulls a three wood from like 260 with the ball a foot above his feet. As I take cover behind my cart, he makes this wild swing and tops the ball and I kid you not, the freaking thing goes backwards 10 yards and then rolls down the slope for a total distance of about -15 yards on the shot. I couldn't help but laugh, it was like seeing lightning strike the same place twice! I will likely never see that type of shot again, it was incredible! The thing never even thought about going forward, his ball had had enough abuse and I guess was heading back to the clubhouse for a drink.



ROFLOL.  It has to be the first and only time it has ever happened.  I have seen a couple of shots hit so far off the heel that the ball goes between the feet, but it still goes a little bit forward. 
 

Nope, I've seen it happen once too.  My neighbor tried to hit a 3 wood out of some wet rough and the ball jumped straight backwards about 5 feet.  I laughed the whole rest of the round  



Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 7:45pm
Chuck thats funny fair doos!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:




And I agree.  I was only attempting to show that the clubface can be open to the target line and closed to the path.

I also agree that it is important to learn the ball flight laws if you are attempting to self teach.  If you understand the laws incorrectly you will misdiagnose your swing.


Absolutely, 01.  The factor that is left out of the old ball flight laws is the effect of clubface rotation while the ball is compressed on the face.  You make a good point about the difference between the path and the line.  The line is just that, a line extending to the target.  The path is the inclined arc of the swing.  It is indeed possible to be open to the line and closed to the path.  There are some who say that the clubface should always be square to the arc.  That would mean it should be open to the line going back and coming down but closed to the line after impact.  I don't believe that this is what good players do.  Good players are open to the path during the downswing and closed to the path at some point after impact.  In other words, they rotate the clubface aggressively from open to square to closed relative to both the path and, of course, the line as they swing around the inclined arc.  This "extra rotation" of the face relative to the arc adds force to their shots.  It simply comes down to using the club the way it's designed to be used, as a two-levered tool with the final lever of the swing being the clubface.

Not long ago on Hardy's forum, I got into h heated debate on this very subject with our old friend. Jeffy.  Over there, they seem to be preaching a clubface that is always square to the arc.  They are misguided. 



Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 22 June 2006 at 10:42pm
I spend next to no time on Hardy's site, but I tend to disagree with you on this one.   If the clubface is ALWAYS square to the path, then the club is slowly releasing throughout the entire downswing.  Some good players do this.  I think the majority do not, however.  Look at face on pics of Sergio Garcia.  The back of his lead hand faces the camera  just before impact, and the toe is  up.  Then, at impact everything comes together in what I have heard called maximum delay.

Again, having said that, I do think there are swings that are based more on the idea of keeping the face square longer.  TGMers talk about this somewhat.  (I know, I know that is a curse word around here)  They call it "Hitting", and the pattern you refer to they call "swinging".  I do think most TGM guys consider Hardy to be teaching a "hitting" pattern.

P.S.  Sorry to drop TGM on you, I know it has a bad rap around here.


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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 1:26am
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by GolfObsessed GolfObsessed wrote:


I'm going dizzy as well


So, One Planer, just to simplify: you are saying that if I hit a ball and it immediately starts left, it is primarily because of a closed club face as opposed to swing path?

Yes, GO, exactly.  If the clubface is closed when the ball separates, the ball will start left even if the path is in-to-out.  It will probably hook farther to the left, also.

So, if you want to draw the ball for example, at address, is it your contention that you should aim the club face where you want the ball to START, as opposed to end up?

Well, there are three ways to draw the ball.  One is to align the clubface where you want the ball to go and your body where you want the ball to start. 

 You are contradicting youself again. Why would you align yourself where you want the ball to start if path has little or nothing to do with the line of flight ? Path has nothing to do with initial direction, so just aim the face where you want the ball to end & let er rip.

 Another is to add more rotation to the clubface as you swing through impact, possibly even strenthening your grip.  The third is to keep the clubface more closed to the path going back and coming down.



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Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 1:31am

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

I haven't posted here in awhile, but I found this interesting.

I agree with OnePlaner!  The original golf ball flight laws written by Dr. Garry Wiren are wrong! 

Here is the problem I had a hard time getting over:  The target line is only a reference point.  In other words, the target line cannot affect the ball in any way whatsoever.  What matters to the balls curvature, or lack there of, is the relationship between the path the and the face.  If the path is from the inside and the face is square to the path, (at separation) we get a push.  I think we all agree on this one, right?  But lets get a little more specific.  If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*.  This is why you have to disregard the target line, except as a reference point to the ball flight.  If the face had been square to the target line, and the path from the inside the ball would have started right at the target, but turned left of the target due to the inside path, and closed clubface.

PS.  I have all but lost my slice since applying these rules to my swing!

 

 Target line has nothing to do with anything. It's path line & face line @ impact.



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Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 1:38am
Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by jonag jonag wrote:

OnePlaner

How about my golf ball of clay.  Will that also leave in the direction of the clubface ?

Yes, I believe it would.  Why wouldn't it?

I have read Dave pelz.  He has experimented with putting and direction.  He says that it is mainly caused by the clubface, and to some degree on the path.

Oh dear.  Now I have to disagree with the world's foremost putting expert.  Think about a pool shot.  if the queball strikes the object ball at the right point, the object ball will go in the pocket.  The putter face is the queball, the golf ball is the object ball, and the hole is the pocket.  If the putter strikes the ball at the right point on the surface of the ball, the ball will go in the hole if the putter face is square to that point.  The path can be slightly in-to-out or out-to-in.  The ball will still go along the intended line.


 

Well, a soft clay ball will stick to the clubhead and follow it around really, so its a bad example, but the less elastic and the more the friction between the clubhead and the ball, the more it will be affected by the direction of the club force.  The club force is along the path.

Think of tennis.  If a tennis player where forced to play with a marble and a rock hard wooden racket, he would never curve the ball, never be able to send a stop ball.  He would send the marble the direction of the racket face.

OK, the less clubhead speed, the more you are right, but the higher speed, the more the path contributes. 

I have picked up the book "Search for the perfect swing" by Alastair Cochran and John Stobbs and what I learned during my master of sience education and mechanics course:

Now, first, forget about loft to make this one-dimensional, or better lets say we hit a 0 loft driver !

When the club is hit with a clubhead that is square to the path, the ball will feel one unified force exactly along the path.  It goes straight according to the path since the rebound force (=clubface direction) is exactly the same direction as the path.

When hit with a clubhead open to the path, the frictional force will work along the clubface surface 90 degrees to the angle of the clubface (pointing towards your feet).  The other main force in the equation is the rebound force along the clubface direction.

We have then two forces, one 90 degrees to the clubface and one in the clubface direction.  The resultant force is to the left the clubface direction.  The less friction, the less 90 degrees frictional force and the less difference between ball and clubhead direction.  And the more friction, the more the ball will go along the path.

If looking at a square 5iron (30deg loft) clubhead hitting a ball, the launch angle was found to be 27 degrees at 100mph clubhead speed.  This is a very high speed, but for a driver at 30 degrees loft, hit flush, one can expect 3 degrees less effective loft due to the path direction.  Now, 30 degrees loft is the same as 30 degrees open clubface and that is much.  The book also looked at higher lofted and lower lofted clubs.  A 10 degrees driver gave 8 degrees effective loft.

Well, this tells me that OnePlaner are the one of us that is most correct.  The ball is traveling mainly and approx 80% in the direction of the clubface and only 20% in the direction of the path, with sidespin curving it well back and beyond the direction of the clubface.

I took the low risk bet and said it was somewhere in between Embarrassed

Dave pelz found that the clubhead face on putts contributes 83% of the direction.

 So if on a putt the path effect on initial direction is 17%..........wonder what  %effect the path with the speed of a full swing would have?

 I re-call stating previously path speed had mucho to do with this , so the putting example means nothing

So aiming the clubface at the target and the shoulders to the left to fade it to your target will not work. You need to aim the shoulders left of the target and aim the clubhead somewhere between the shoulder line and the target line depending on loft, wind and moist.  Loft gives you more backspin and less effect of the sidespinn, wind makes the sidespinn climb the wind sideways and exaggerates the fade or draw and the moist changes the friction and thereby the amount of sidespin.

The softer the shot the more you need to aim the clubface at your target since the sidespinn will be small.

Since both pelz and the other book says approx 20% effect by path, I guess this is the number to remember.  I you think the sidespinn will not curve the ball in the air, aim your clubface almost at the target.  The more the sidespinn will curve the ball the less the clubface must be aimed towards the target rather than the path. 



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Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 2:22am
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

<snip>

 I spoke to a physics guy at FSU today & he says both sides have elements of truth. We all know that. His final was swing-path was primary relative to initial direction..........not final destination. He also stated the faster the swing-speed , more  path influence. He mentioned that a golf ball can have only ONE type of spin at a time..............like you can't have back-spin & sidespin at the same time. HHHmmmmm. Interesting...........

This discussion is fun.  It always elicits the same incredulous responses.

1.  The face doesn't rotate through impact.
2.  Impact happens so fast it's impossibe to influence what happens.

Now we have the "testimony of an expert in the field".   He's a "physics guy" -- a real scientist -- so he can't possibly be wrong.  Well, my physics guy says just the opposite of your physics guy.  He's telling me than the ball leaves the face at 90 degrees to where the face is pointing and that will always be the initial direction of flight.

 I never said he was an expert in the field just a physics guy.........& I suppose because your physics guy said mine was wrong , that makes you right? For everyone of yours , I'll give you 4 of mine.

 If the ball leaves face 90* & that's initial direction, what effect does path have ? And why ever be concerned with path ?

 also said it takes the average tour player 18-24 inches to rotate the clubface through the impact zone. I suppose that's the "foot on either side of the ball" we have heard about.

But in a previous post you said something like, "The face doesn't rotate through impact. so let's get that out of the way right now."  Are we to assume that the player starts rotating the face when it is 12 inches from the ball, stops rotating it at impact/compression, and then resumes rotating it for 12 inches after separation?   Of course not.  Your "physics guy" is right in this instance. The clubface is constantly rotating relative to the target line from the beginning of the swing to the finish.  It is geometrically inevitable.  The golf swing is a "side-on" motion performed with a "two-levered tool".  The toe travels farther and faster than the bottom of the shaft throughout the swing.  That's a given.  The other given is that the ball compresses at impact and rebounds off the face at separation.  The flight of the ball is determined in that small fraction of a second when the ball is on the face of the club.  It's simply illogical to assert that it happens too fast to have any consequence.  It is the only thing of consequence.  It is the moment of truth

 Wrong

 I think 1p is all wrong on this. If swingpath doesn't dictate initial line of flight what the hell difference does it make how we line up. Just make sure the face angle is right.............lol........ why set up open or closed? Wouldn't matter..........

Well, in fact it doesn't really matter.  As I said previously, Snead aligned to the right and pulled the ball toward the target.  Trevino aligns to the left and pushes the ball toward the target.  If you get the face angle right durng the moment of truth, it doesn't matter at all......lol.....so long as you can do it repetitively.

 Well if it doesn't matter , there would be no need for Snead to pull or Trevino to push now would there? Just stand there how-ever and swing away as long as @ seperation the face was at the target............lolraotf.........

& 1 your reference about the "divot pointing left" thing proves nothing ............ball is hit first and is long gone, then the divot.

But a proper divot starts very close to the front of the ball.  If it points left of the target line, it indicates that the clubhead was on the target line at impact and no longer traveling in-to-out.  But the clubface can be open, square, or closed to the line and the path at that instant.  That will determine the initial direction of flight.  How the ball is compressed while the clubface is rotating will detirmine the prevailing axis to spin and hence how the ball will curve in flight.

 I would love to see someone hit a ball that starts right of target & draws back with an open face at seperation.......lol

Did you watch the US Open last week?  That shot was hit thousands of times if you add in all the shots hit on the range......lol.

 Not the last group on Sunday @ #18



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Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 5:16am

Randini

 

You wrote:

"

 So if on a putt the path effect on initial direction is 17%..........wonder what  %effect the path with the speed of a full swing would have?

 I re-call stating previously path speed had mucho to do with this , so the putting example means nothing

"

Read my text  

It seemed to me from 2 different studies (Pelz on putting and some english guys on full swings) that the effect of path was approx 20%.

I thought before I checked the science that the path contributed even more, but I was wrong.  But it influences.

In the PGA manual the prescribed way of making a draw or fade is to aim the clubhead on the initial direction you want the ball to go and then open or close the stance to adjust the sidespin.

All in all I believe path contributes to some extent, OnePlaner says it does not influence, I say in practical life forget about it.  THe appreciacion of the effect the sidespin has during the ballflight is much more important to the result



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 8:30am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

 

Well, there are three ways to draw the ball.  One is to align the clubface where you want the ball to go and your body where you want the ball to start. 

 You are contradicting youself again. Why would you align yourself where you want the ball to start if path has little or nothing to do with the line of flight ? Path has nothing to do with initial direction, so just aim the face where you want the ball to end & let er rip.





If you return the clubface to its closed position at address relative to your body alignment, this method will actually produce a shot that starts left of your body alignment and hooks very soon after leaving the face.  I've never found it very satisfactory except in cases where the obstruction I'm trying to curve around is close and I need to curve the ball sharply and quickly.  For that shot, I align my body to the right of where I want the ball to start.  Closing the face to body alignment insures that the outside hemisphere of the ball will be compressed at impact, which makes the ball curve to the left.  Actually, it produces a hook rather than a draw.

 


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 9:32am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

 If the ball leaves face 90* & that's initial direction, what effect does path have ? And why ever be concerned with path ?

The path is always forward.  Therefore, the ball always starts forward -- at 90 degrees to the face angle at separation.  Immediately before separation, you have impact and then compression.  During compression, the clubface is rotating counterclockwise around the heel.  This face rotation determines how the ball will curve in the air.  That's it in a nutshell.

 Well if it doesn't matter , there would be no need for Snead to pull or Trevino to push now would there? Just stand there how-ever and swing away as long as @ seperation the face was at the target............lolraotf.........

I'm not saying that path has nothing to do with ball flight.  It obviously does.  Snead pulled the ball toward the target by coming slightly over the top.  Trevino's path was in-to-out relative to his body alignment.  In conjunction with their respective paths, their clubfaces were looking approximately toward the target at separation, having rotated sufficiently to produce a relatively straight ball flight.  What I mean when I say alignment and path don't matter is that there are a number of ways to hit a golf ball toward the target.  You can be effective so long as you can repeat your action consistently.  You can align to the right like Snead or to the left like Trevino and hit shots at the target so long as you have the right dynamics going on while the ball is on the clubface.  That is the moment of trutth.




Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 9:47am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

 Target line has nothing to do with anything. It's path line & face line @ impact.

[/QUOTE]

Impact is one thing, compression is another, and separation is yet another.   All three phases of the "impact zone" work together to influence the nature of the shot.  The "impact zone" is that brief time when the ball is on -- and leaves -- the rotating clubface. 


Posted By: rayvil01
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 9:49am

OP wrote: Well, my physics guy says just the opposite of your physics guy. 

That's the First Rule of Trial Lawyers: "For each and every Expert Witness, there is an equal and opposite Expert Witness." 

I never saw a ball hit backwards...but, from the same setup (rough, ball above feet, fairway wood, bad swing) I saw a guy pop the ball straight up in the air about 15 feet, when it came down it hit the guy on top of the head.  I was "no more good" after that...could not stop laughing.  Dude was a jerk, all temper, no humor.  He stormed off the course a few holes later.  There is justice in the world. 

Interesting discussion.  IMHO, One-Planer is spot on, as usual.



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/golf-swing-lag-most-important.html - How to improve your golf swing lag




Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 10:05am
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

I haven't posted here in awhile, but I found this interesting.

I agree with OnePlaner!  The original golf ball flight laws written by Dr. Garry Wiren are wrong! 

Here is the problem I had a hard time getting over:  The target line is only a reference point.  In other words, the target line cannot affect the ball in any way whatsoever.  What matters to the balls curvature, or lack there of, is the relationship between the path the and the face.  If the path is from the inside and the face is square to the path, (at separation) we get a push.  I think we all agree on this one, right?  But lets get a little more specific.  If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*.  This is why you have to disregard the target line, except as a reference point to the ball flight.  If the face had been square to the target line, and the path from the inside the ball would have started right at the target, but turned left of the target due to the inside path, and closed clubface.

PS.  I have all but lost my slice since applying these rules to my swing!

 

 Target line has nothing to do with anything. It's path line & face line @ impact.



You didn't read this did you?

It is all about path/face angle relationship. 

To answer another question of yours, the reason you would aim your body right of the target line to hit a big draw or hook, is to ensure that your clubhead path will be from inside the target line.  The more inside you can come at the ball, the more the clubface can be closed to the path without being closed to the target line.  The more inside the path can be relative to the face, the more hook spin the path will give the ball.


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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 11:31am
Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

I haven't posted here in awhile, but I found this interesting.

I agree with OnePlaner!  The original golf ball flight laws written by Dr. Garry Wiren are wrong! 

Here is the problem I had a hard time getting over:  The target line is only a reference point.  In other words, the target line cannot affect the ball in any way whatsoever.  What matters to the balls curvature, or lack there of, is the relationship between the path the and the face. 

 Somebody here said swing-path didn't matter

 If the path is from the inside and the face is square to the path, (at separation) we get a push.  I think we all agree on this one, right?  But lets get a little more specific.  If the path is from the inside at 4*, and the face is closed to the path by 2*.  We get a draw,(starts right of the target, and turns left) even though the clubface is open to the target line by 2*.  This is why you have to disregard the target line, except as a reference point to the ball flight.  If the face had been square to the target line, and the path from the inside the ball would have started right at the target, but turned left of the target due to the inside path, and closed clubface.

PS.  I have all but lost my slice since applying these rules to my swing!

 

 Target line has nothing to do with anything. It's path line & face line @ impact.



You didn't read this did you?

 Yea I read it , you didn't read mine. I said it was path & angle. 1p says path doesn't matter

It is all about path/face angle relationship. 

To answer another question of yours,

 I don't need this answered .I know why I aim the way I do to work the ball. The point was that some on here say swing-path doesn't matter

  the reason you would aim your body right of the target line to hit a big draw or hook, is to ensure that your clubhead path will be from inside the target line.  The more inside you can come at the ball, the more the clubface can be closed to the path without being closed to the target line.  The more inside the path can be relative to the face, the more hook spin the path will give the ball.



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Posted By: dave.
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 11:44am
If swing path doesn't make a difference,why do footballers come from inside the ball then close their foot around it to get draw spin?  same goes for a golf swing,of course path has a role to play,a big part.




Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 7:08pm
Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

I spend next to no time on Hardy's site, but I tend to disagree with you on this one.   If the clubface is ALWAYS square to the path, then the club is slowly releasing throughout the entire downswing.  Some good players do this.  I think the majority do not, however.  Look at face on pics of Sergio Garcia.  The back of his lead hand faces the camera  just before impact, and the toe is  up.  Then, at impact everything comes together in what I have heard called maximum delay.

Again, having said that, I do think there are swings that are based more on the idea of keeping the face square longer.  TGMers talk about this somewhat.  (I know, I know that is a curse word around here)  They call it "Hitting", and the pattern you refer to they call "swinging".  I do think most TGM guys consider Hardy to be teaching a "hitting" pattern.

P.S.  Sorry to drop TGM on you, I know it has a bad rap around here.


No problem as far as I'm concerned with bringing TGM into the discussion.   I'm a little bit familiar with TGM's hitting and swinging strokes.  I agree that the hitter's stroke is closest to the one plane swing, at least as Hardy describes it.  It's not all that close, though.
 


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 7:23pm
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:


You didn't read this did you?

 Yea I read it , you didn't read mine. I said it was path & angle. 1p says path doesn't matter



No, Randini, I didn't say swing path doesn't matter.  I said the ball will leave the clubface at 90 degrees to the face angle, regardless of swing path.  You said that the ball will leave in the direction of the swing path, but you've never addressed the fact that the clubface can be open, square, or closed to the swing path at separation.  The ball will leave in the direction of the swing path ONLY if the clubface is square to the swing path at separation.  If the clubface is open or closed to the swingpath, the ball will leave to the right or the left of the swing path respectively.



Posted By: anth15
Date Posted: 23 June 2006 at 9:21pm



 

[/QUOTE]

No, Randini, I didn't say swing path doesn't matter.  I said the ball will leave the clubface at 90 degrees to the face angle, regardless of swing path.  You said that the ball will leave in the direction of the swing path, but you've never addressed the fact that the clubface can be open, square, or closed to the swing path at separation.  The ball will leave in the direction of the swing path ONLY if the clubface is square to the swing path at separation.  If the clubface is open or closed to the swingpath, the ball will leave to the right or the left of the swing path respectively.

  [/QUOTE]

That makes sense.



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anth


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 12:32am
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

<snip>

 I spoke to a physics guy at FSU today & he says both sides have elements of truth. We all know that. His final was swing-path was primary relative to initial direction..........not final destination. He also stated the faster the swing-speed , more  path influence. He mentioned that a golf ball can have only ONE type of spin at a time..............like you can't have back-spin & sidespin at the same time. HHHmmmmm. Interesting...........

This discussion is fun.  It always elicits the same incredulous responses.

1.  The face doesn't rotate through impact.
2.  Impact happens so fast it's impossibe to influence what happens.

Now we have the "testimony of an expert in the field".   He's a "physics guy" -- a real scientist -- so he can't possibly be wrong.  Well, my physics guy says just the opposite of your physics guy.  He's telling me than the ball leaves the face at 90 degrees to where the face is pointing and that will always be the initial direction of flight.

 also said it takes the average tour player 18-24 inches to rotate the clubface through the impact zone. I suppose that's the "foot on either side of the ball" we have heard about.

But in a previous post you said something like, "The face doesn't rotate through impact. so let's get that out of the way right now."  Are we to assume that the player starts rotating the face when it is 12 inches from the ball, stops rotating it at impact/compression, and then resumes rotating it for 12 inches after separation?   Of course not.  Your "physics guy" is right in this instance. The clubface is constantly rotating relative to the target line from the beginning of the swing to the finish.  It is geometrically inevitable.  The golf swing is a "side-on" motion performed with a "two-levered tool".  The toe travels farther and faster than the bottom of the shaft throughout the swing.  That's a given.  The other given is that the ball compresses at impact and rebounds off the face at separation.  The flight of the ball is determined in that small fraction of a second when the ball is on the face of the club.  It's simply illogical to assert that it happens too fast to have any consequence.  It is the only thing of consequence.  It is the moment of truth

 it certainly sounds from the above remarks you make in reference to my comments that path doesn't matter.........." the flight of the ball is determinedin that small fraction of a second when the ball is on the face of the club"..........it's the only thing of consequence.........moment of truth.

 this comes across just as it reads...............


 

 I think 1p is all wrong on this. If swingpath doesn't dictate initial line of flight what the hell difference does it make how we line up. Just make sure the face angle is right.............lol........ why set up open or closed? Wouldn't matter..........

Well, in fact it doesn't really matter. 

 "well, in fact it really doesn't matter"     & this is in reference to my comment about alignment & path

 wrong again

 As I said previously, Snead aligned to the right and pulled the ball toward the target.  Trevino aligns to the left and pushes the ball toward the target.  If you get the face angle right durng the moment of truth, it doesn't matter at all......lol.....so long as you can do it repetitively.

& 1 your reference about the "divot pointing left" thing proves nothing ............ball is hit first and is long gone, then the divot.

But a proper divot starts very close to the front of the ball.  If it points left of the target line, it indicates that the clubhead was on the target line at impact and no longer traveling in-to-out.  But the clubface can be open, square, or closed to the line and the path at that instant.  That will determine the initial direction of flight.  How the ball is compressed while the clubface is rotating will detirmine the prevailing axis to spin and hence how the ball will curve in flight.

 so..........lol............initial direction of flight is determined @ impact , whether it's open , square or closed , & compression determines the curve in flight........so what the heck does path have to do with anything ?you have your initial direction from face angle......& curve in flight for final destination..what else do you need ?certainly not for forward direction , because that's covered by face angle  @ impact.........that 180* area perpindicular to the ball position at rest .

 oh.........I get it......that long swinging motion we call swing-path...........that gives you speed...........& speed gives you distance..........& thats the basis of the physics from my side.  A swing-path with sufficent speed will determine initial direction until the speed decreases due to the offset of gravity & air.........then the axis spin released by compression & u-grooves takes over...............that's why most ....& I said most............curving is at the end of flight..............

  the world is still flat where I come from

 I would love to see someone hit a ball that starts right of target & draws back with an open face at seperation.......lol

Did you watch the US Open last week?  That shot was hit thousands of times if you add in all the shots hit on the range......lol.



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Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 2:41am

There are so many quotes within quotes that I can't tell who's saying what anymore, but whomever said, "Did you watch the US Open last week?  That shot was hit thousands of times if you add in all the shots hit on the range......lol," must have some excellent vision.  You may be able to see swing path, but I'm doubting that you could determine club face direction at impact.

If my physics memory serves me right, shouldn't the ball leave the clubface at a 90 from the direction it hits it?  That means it only leaves perpendicular to the clubface if it hits it perpendicular.  Try it yourself by throwing a ball at your clubface.  If it hits 45 from the left, it leaves 45 to the right - not perpendicular to the face.

I stated earlier that initial direction is influenced by both swing path and clubface direction.  My biggest problem with OnePlaner's argument is that I find it extremely hard to believe that an out to in swing path (say 10 open to target line) with a club face open to the path (say 10 open, which makes it square to the target) is going to draw or hook.  I'm sorry my friend, that ball is fading or slicing.

lpratt



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:18am
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

There are so many quotes within quotes that I can't tell who's saying what anymore, but whomever said, "Did you watch the US Open last week?  That shot was hit thousands of times if you add in all the shots hit on the range......lol," must have some excellent vision.  You may be able to see swing path, but I'm doubting that you could determine club face direction at impact.

I made that comment, Lpratt.  Not because I could see swing path and clubface rotation through impact on TV, but simply because I know strong players hit that shot quite often.  I've hit it myself countless times.  Also, I've been to PGA tournaments and spent hours watching the pros hit shots on the range where I can see alignment, swing path, and ball flight.  You'll often see a down the line shot on TV in which the ball appears to leave the club going dead right, but when the camera shows it landing on the green, it is basically on target and spins left when it lands.  That's the shot I'm talking about.

If my physics memory serves me right, shouldn't the ball leave the clubface at a 90 from the direction it hits it?  That means it only leaves perpendicular to the clubface if it hits it perpendicular.  Try it yourself by throwing a ball at your clubface.  If it hits 45 from the left, it leaves 45 to the right - not perpendicular to the face.

I think you've just proved that the ball leaves the face at 90 degrees to the face angle.  Let's see, ball hits face at 45 degrees from the left and leaves face 45 degrees to the right.  45+45=90. 

I stated earlier that initial direction is influenced by both swing path and clubface direction.  My biggest problem with OnePlaner's argument is that I find it extremely hard to believe that an out to in swing path (say 10 open to target line) with a club face open to the path (say 10 open, which makes it square to the target) is going to draw or hook.  I'm sorry my friend, that ball is fading or slicing.

Of course it will fade or slice.  In the first place, you've got the path wrong.  The path is in-to-in.  In the second place, 10 degrees open is excessive.

Sorry if the quotes are getting confusing.  My stuff is in blue here. 

lpratt



Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

If my physics memory serves me right, shouldn't the ball leave the clubface at a 90 from the direction it hits it?  That means it only leaves perpendicular to the clubface if it hits it perpendicular.  Try it yourself by throwing a ball at your clubface.  If it hits 45 from the left, it leaves 45 to the right - not perpendicular to the face.

I think you've just proved that the ball leaves the face at 90 degrees to the face angle.  Let's see, ball hits face at 45 degrees from the left and leaves face 45 degrees to the right.  45+45=90. 

I stated earlier that initial direction is influenced by both swing path and clubface direction.  My biggest problem with OnePlaner's argument is that I find it extremely hard to believe that an out to in swing path (say 10 open to target line) with a club face open to the path (say 10 open, which makes it square to the target) is going to draw or hook.  I'm sorry my friend, that ball is fading or slicing.

Of course it will fade or slice.  In the first place, you've got the path wrong.  The path is in-to-in.  In the second place, 10 degrees open is excessive.

1- No I didn't just prove the ball leaves the face at 90 to the face - and I didn't explain it right either.  Think of the perpendicular line to the clubface as a mirror.  If the ball comes into the face 10 off perpendicular, it will leave the face 10 off perpenducular through the other side. i.e. If it comes in at 70 (20 off perpendicular), it will leave at 110 (20 of perpendicular - the other side).  It only leaves the face perpendicular if it arrives perpendicular.

2- As long as you agree that the ball in the second quote slices or fades - we agree!   Do you also agree that the ball in the example is a pull-slice?  If so we are saying the same thing and don't realize it after 8 pages of banter.

Take care OnePlaner - it's good to hear from you.  lpratt



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 1:01pm

I tend to believe OP is right because I've hit huge hooks (ball starts left and goes further left) even though I'm sure I've had an inside-out path.  For the ball to start left instead of right in that situation, the clubhead must have more influence than path.  Having said that, I was just wondering if someone had any references to typically how much club face rotation is going on during the compression phase by a top amatuer or pro? I've searched high and low for days now and I can't find any reference to the effects of clubhead rotation during compression. 

Regards,

Bob

 



Posted By: dave.
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 2:10pm
Bob

I may be being a bit pedantic,but surely the answer is so simple,thats why you can't find any reference to it.The ball can do 3 things,go straight,left,or right,depending on whether the club goes square,or rotates left or right at during compression,just like how a footballer hits swerves.But you are alos asking 'how much,which is IMPOSSIBLE to quantify,the type of ball and type of iron will play a part,plus many other varibales.


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 3:02pm

Bob,

I stated earlier that the ball is in contact with the face for about 0.00045 of a second (USGA website) in which your club head travels about an inch - not a lot of rotation is going on in an inch.  Besides, in a decent swing, the clubface should always be approximately square to the swing arc.  This is why I tend to discount the club head rotation and it's effect on the spin.  It has a slight effect, but compared to the club face or path (whichever you believe), it is insignificant. 

lpratt



Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 5:42pm
 that's it in a nut-shell lpratt...........I agree............& I choose to go with the physics that say if there is enough speed, (not like a putting stroke for instance) that path speed is the primary influence on initial direction   & face angle will determine spin

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Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 7:03pm
Originally posted by randini randini wrote:

 that's it in a nut-shell lpratt...........I agree............& I choose to go with the physics that say if there is enough speed, (not like a putting stroke for instance) that path speed is the primary influence on initial direction   & face angle will determine spin


And so long as you don't diagnose your swing based on ball flight you'll be fine

Now, before you get all riled up, that was meant lighthearted, as I am sure you feel the same way about me.


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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by lpratt17 lpratt17 wrote:

[/QUOTE]

1- No I didn't just prove the ball leaves the face at 90 to the face - and I didn't explain it right either.  Think of the perpendicular line to the clubface as a mirror.  If the ball comes into the face 10 off perpendicular, it will leave the face 10 off perpenducular through the other side. i.e. If it comes in at 70 (20 off perpendicular), it will leave at 110 (20 of perpendicular - the other side).  It only leaves the face perpendicular if it arrives perpendicular.

2- As long as you agree that the ball in the second quote slices or fades - we agree!   Do you also agree that the ball in the example is a pull-slice?  If so we are saying the same thing and don't realize it after 8 pages of banter.

Take care OnePlaner - it's good to hear from you.  lpratt

[/QUOTE]

I don't understand what you're saying in point #1.  As for #2, I do agree that the ball will slice or fade in your previous example, but I don't agree that it will be a pull-slice.  A 10* open face with a path 10* across the line would be an ugly shot, but I think it would start high to the right and go farther to the right.  A classic banana ball. 

You take care, too, Lpratt.


Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:38pm
10 degrees is truly ugly.  Especially ten degrees over the top and ten degrees open to the club path.  But..........Isn't  that about your classic cut shot with a wedge?  Which BTW, goes right, and then more right.

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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:40pm

OK

the concept of the ball leaving in the clubface angle is maybe not 100% correct, but is an easy concept to take to the real life.  There are a lot more to it that just clubface angle, it is also path, gear effect, ball perfection, atc, atc.

At least it has helped me these few days to understand my impact much better

If I hit a straight shot in the direction I aimed, I knew I got the path and clubface angle correct. Obviously!

If I hit it where I aimed but got a draw or fade, i knew I got my path either a little inside to out or outside to in.

If I pulled it or pushed it I knew I just missed with my path, but fixed the clubface rotation correctly.

if I pulldrawed or pushfaded, I knew I only closed the face to much or blocked it a little.

I I pullhooked or pushsliced, also my path and clubface was wrong. (pullhook = outside in + closed face, pushslice = inside out + open clubface

I thought I just missed with an outside in path, but I do both.  Last day was a good example.  I hit it straight, but pushed or pulled it a little, nice distance  I knew it was only the path wrong.  My hands, grip and rotation should be Ok when I hit it straight.  So instead of working with the rotation and hands, I started thinking about how well I held my balance and controlled the connection of my arms to my body to get my path right.

I found my error today.  A little overswing that made me get of balance and voila, the shots went a lot straighter.

So I think the physics nerd could start calculating the true answer.  There is one in my head, but it does not help me on the course.

But the practical truth that the ball leaves in the direction of the clubface and draws if the clubface is closed to the path and fades if it is open to the path is all you need on course.

Hope you agree in this Oneplaner.



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Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 8:59pm

This may help explain my point #1:



Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 9:16pm

Originally posted by 01ragtop 01ragtop wrote:

10 degrees is truly ugly.  Especially ten degrees over the top and ten degrees open to the club path.  But..........Isn't  that about your classic cut shot with a wedge?  Which BTW, goes right, and then more right.

Good observation ragtop, especially since it supports my contention - what say you One Planer? 



Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 9:25pm

I think you forget that the point of impact is not perpendicular to the direction of the ball, but will be perpendicular to the clubface.  If the ball is very hard and smooth it will not be affected by the closed clubface...



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Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: jonag
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 9:29pm

No this will be wrong...  You are right, but the club travels and not the ball and that is very different...

I do not know any more....



-------------
Jon Arne
golfaholic @ 8.9
http://oneplanegolfswing.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5051&golfinstruction=jonags%20set - My bag..


Posted By: lpratt17
Date Posted: 24 June 2006 at 9:59pm

Jonag,

My picture was illustrating the laws of physics for two hard objects (no compression).  I did it because someone earlier mentioned that physics says a ball always leaves perpendicular to the face per their physic guy - I wanted to state what physics really says.  The compression factor between a clubface and ball cause the club to grab the ball for a very short time (0.00045 sec.).  It wants to go the direction of the path initially due to the time of compression - which sort of sticks the club face and ball together.  This is why I continue to contend that the ball starts on the swing line (or close to it)  and spins the direction the face is looking.

Per your illustration, I would say that this ball starts somewhere between what you have labeled as "rebound direction" and "path", but the face (closed to the swing plane) does put a counter clock-wise spin on the ball, causing a hook or draw back towards the target line. 

A few posts ago, Ragtop mentioned the "cut lob," the classic sand shot too.  While the swing path is opposite of your sketch, it is a perfect example of the inital direction (influenced by open stance, shoulders and swing plane) and spin imparted on the ball (influenced by the face opened to the swing plane).

lpratt 




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