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Technology - Hurting or helping?

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Forum Discription: Private forum where golf instructor Chuck Quinton answers questions directly for Vault members
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Printed Date: 27 April 2018 at 12:23am
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Topic: Technology - Hurting or helping?
Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Subject: Technology - Hurting or helping?
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:02pm

Over the past several weeks I've found myself going backwards in equipment. It's interesting, but my game has been evolving into something entirely different and it has made me markedly more consistent. In my "younger" days , I hit the ball a long way, even in college I averaged 317 off the tee (at altitude in Denver however). My iron play was good, but never great, but it really didn't matter because the courses I played were pretty much wide open with no trees, so I would just bomb it over everything and hit a wedge in. Lately I've been getting frustrated because I'm hitting my irons so well that I know if I can just have a reasonable shot from the fairway I'm going to have a very good look at birdie almost every time. The problem is that my driver doesn't really fit that sort of game. All my clubs are about control, old school blades are back in the bag and my new 3 wood is one of my favorite clubs of all time and it was designed 25 years ago! My irons are as traditional as they come and are 5 years old. But my driver has the huge bobble head with the super light graphite shaft (65 grams) and I just can't hit it the same. I've gotten so much more focused on precision and placement and this thing just seems to only work best when I step up and whale away on it. It's almost as if the monster size head discourages control and accuracy and requires you swing hard. It just doesn't "feel" or "look" like a precision club to me, for whatever reason, I really like the tiny clubheads as they seem to help me be more accurate and laser like.

I've gotten so enthralled with my 3 wood that I started looking at the ancient Titleist PT woods. If they made a bore through model I'd already have one. I'm very seriously considering switching back to a steel shafted driver, I haven't had one in about 5 years and the one I had was stupidly straight, but cost me a good 5-10 yards. Anyone else experience something similar? I made an eagle with my 3 wood today on a par 5 at my home course. I hit a perfect little butter fade to 4 foot from 227, with my old three wood I wouldn't have near the control to hit that shot and take that much off with precision. I don't know if it's the bigger head, the steel shaft, the bore through, the COG or a combination of all the above but I LOVE this thing!



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve



Replies:
Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:06pm

Chuck,

Have you thought about putting a heavier shaft in the driver?



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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:11pm
Yeah, I've got an S300 sitting on my bench, but I'd really like a bore through head and this one isn't. I think it makes the head significantly more stable and easier to control. I'm looking at some of the older clubs before everyone decided to move the COG so far back. Maybe a 983E would be a good place to start.

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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:13pm
That would be a good choice to start with!!

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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:15pm
You know what's really interesting about all this? I was reading something the other day about Tiger's first tee shot as a professional. It went 335 yards dead straight, and yep, he was using his old steel shafted 43.5" driver. Sheesh, why change? I know, I know, the thought of getting better and taking advantage of technology but has it paid off? I don't think so.

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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 4:19pm
Yeah I heard that the other day as well.  It just shows you how much Tiger loves to hit it by other people!! Maybe he will realize after winning The Open he doesnt need to drive it by everyone to win.  I would love to see him go back to a steel shafted driver and dominate everyone!!! That would really be something!! I would bet a lot of people would start reshafting their drivers with steel again!!!

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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: randini
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 7:03pm

 I haven't gone back to a steel shaft yet but I did go from a 460 head to a 360 head with a little heavier shaft & all I have to do is look at that thing & it will fade.  I may have given up 7 - 10 yards but so what .

 My problem is I get bored & start working on my draw ( right in the middle of the round)T ball & there goes the fairway.

 My home course has several holes that are really tree-lined very close off the tee & dogleg pretty sharpe left to right....so it's fun trying to draw it(lefty here)......lol



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Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 7:33pm
I think personally the only people this technology has helped is the hackers!

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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: Bird-D
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 7:52pm
Chuck funny you should mention.  I have been pondering the same thing.   It took me awhile to purchase a 460cc driver for the fact that it does not 'look' as accurate as a sub 400 cc head.  I don't think they are as accurate, giving my limited experience with hitting diffferent drivers.

 Currently I play the Ping G5 with Graffalloy Prolaunch 65 s.  My previous driver was a Titlest 983K with aldila NV65 s.  I can say that i had many more good streaks with my Titleist.  However the shaft is broke in the Titleist.  I am going to reshaft this thing.  Should I go with the NV65 again or would you recommend a change.  I have been eyeing the Proforce V2 75 s.  How does a heavier shaft affect things?  My driver swing averages, I'd say, 105mph.  I have a swing time of 1.08-1.15 seconds.  When swinging like I want, I am producing penetrating mid to mid-high trajectory shots  the average over 300 yards..  Also, I would like to play a shorter shaft.  When I go to say, golfsmith, the only listing i see is 46".  What gives? 

thanks,
db


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 8:28pm
The pro at my club and I were discussing this the other day.  We both concluded that technology has helped golfers but hurt the game.


Posted By: Bird-D
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 8:43pm
op, could you elaborate on how it has hurt the game.


Posted By: rayvil01
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 9:53pm

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

The pro at my club and I were discussing this the other day.  We both concluded that technology has helped golfers but hurt the game.

Probably true on a lot of levels.  There was something about the sound of Persimmon on Balata that was truly aesthetic.  That is a loss. 

 



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/golf-swing-lag-most-important.html - How to improve your golf swing lag




Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 10:22pm

Bird-D, all shafts for woods come in 46" and then are trimmed to fit.  As for what shaft, when it comes to graphite, there are just waaaay too many options out there these days to say. It's ridiculous how many graphite shafts are out there and they're all somewhat different. If the NV worked, stick with it. The NV's that you buy after market were better shafts than what were put in a lot of stock clubs so it may improve it more.

As for helping golfers, if you tried to quantify that technology has helped, I think it would be rather difficult to do so. The handicaps are the same, the number of greens, fairways hit, number of putts, sand saves, etc, they're all the same. So, has it really helped? Sure, golfers may hit the ball a bit further than they used to, but how much so for the average joe? The tour players, yes, you can quantify it, but the average golfer that reflects 98% of the golfing public, I'm not sure they can really say that technology has had as big an impact on their games as it has had on their wallets.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: gwlee7
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 10:26pm
There is not much difference in chipping out of the trees from 257 off the tee as from 264.


Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 10:47pm

As far as technology goes, I have a little different spin on it. I think the ultra light shafts are one of the main culprits concerning fairways hit not changing over the years.  Those 55-65 gram shafts are just too darn light even for the average Joe. Sure we can swing them faster but that just means we're going to hit that much further offline.  When I switched from a 60 gram shaft to an 83 my consistnacy went way up with no discernable loss of distance.  That young stud in my confessions post had come out with a brand new SMT head on a 65g Grafalloy Proluanch shaft and was wailing it but a bit sporadic. He hit my driver 1/2 a dozen times and hit everyone on a string with no loss of distance. Second to that are the new big a$$ cavity back irons with no feel.  Much harder to improve your game if you can't even feel the ball coming off the face IMHO.

The biggest culprit is not so much technology though. Obvioulsy, I'm preaching to the choir here but it's all about infomration overload and the way our genration thinks.  We don't pul the string of a bow back 1000's of times before we ever let lose an arrow. We pull it a few times, dont do very well then read a bazillion aritcles or watch videos all with different suggestions on how to pull the string and what kind of bow we should have and then just keep repeating that process expecting different results.  I don't feel alone in my mental midgetness

 



Posted By: able72
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:11pm
Hey Chuck,

 If your looking for a Bore through hosel, have you considered some of the old Callaway's?

  You can pick up an old Big Bertha Driver with a 196cc head for like $20 on ebay.  That includes shipping, or an old Callaway Steelhead for about $30 with shipping.


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Left Handed Golfer, been playing 6 months. Only two 18 hole rounds to date, shot a 149 on the first one. I have massive room for improvement.


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:26pm

I really can't stand Callaway woods, they are terrible off the shelf for better golfers and their tolerances are really poor. While the bore through is good, the lack of a hosel or a very short one is no good for me. I really prefer a stiff tip and very low torque.

I got something going here. I cruised over to Golfsmith tonight and was able to pick up a 9.5* 983E with a YS-6 shaft ofr $120 because it had a ton of scuffs on the top. After a little buffing, it looks like brand new! Nothing pays like a little elbow grease! Anyway, I bought 2 S300's and 2 X100's and after battling with pulling the old shaft and figuring out how to get a parallel tip S300 into what is apparantly a tapered hosel, I ran out of epoxy! I will epoxy the club together tomorrow. I cut it to 43.5" with no tip trimming on the first run. Swing weight came in at D2 and frequencied at 6.4 (a very stiff Reg flex or very soft Stiff flex). I didn't want to tip trim before trying it out since it will be heavier which will lower my ball flight and the bore through hosel will as well. That's why I bought two, so I can experiment with the tipping. Anyhow, I will report back to everyone how it plays once I glue the thing together.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: able72
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:45pm
In that case, I'm looking for suggestions and recomendations.

What game improvement Iron should I be looking to get?  I am shopping for a used set of clubs.


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Left Handed Golfer, been playing 6 months. Only two 18 hole rounds to date, shot a 149 on the first one. I have massive room for improvement.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 27 July 2006 at 11:50pm
Originally posted by Bird-D Bird-D wrote:

op, could you elaborate on how it has hurt the game.


Increased distance has obsoleted a log of classic old golf courses, many of which are being lengthened at great cost.  Modern courses are getting longer and longer, to the point where the "average Joe" can't play them, even with new technology.  That's why scores haven't improved.  Low spin balls that don't curve as much have taken shot making out of the equation.  Golf has become a bombers game.  The USGA and R & A didn't see this coming until it was too late.  The genie was out of the bottle.


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 12:07am

Chuck,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you not poke the hell out of the ball off the box on almost every hole that required driver the day we played Dubs??? What happened between now and then?  That was quite a driving display you put on that day.  Is it simply a matter of not enough days like that?  I hear you loud and clear about the accuracy and precision thing.  That's why I'm seriously considering getting my driver shaft tipped to 44 inches.  I'm hitting it a mile now, but I still get frustrated by control issues with the big stick.  Maybe the shorter length is what I need.  If I lose a few yards so what! 

Bir-D, the V2 75 is a very good shaft.  Very stable.  I have a 115 swing speed with my driver and this shaft works well for me. 

Dean

 



Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:03am

OP, Isn't it true though, that the "average joe" isn't really playing these longer courses? Sure, there's a bunch of new courses that are well over the 7,000 yard mark, but the majority of courses are still your average length muni. My home course is 6,800 yards and was built back in 1981 and no lengthening has ocurred. Every guy at my club has a brand new Ping G5 and they still can't play.  There are tons of old courses here in Orlando that are still at 6,500 yards, more than there are over 7,000. In fact, our longest public course is 7,400 yards from the tips, but the next tees up cut off about 500 yards total, making it play like a normal old course. It would seem that the "longer course syndrome" really doesn't impact the majority of players, although it certainly must have an impact. But the condition of these courses and quality of the greens and turf in general should make up for the few extra yards to some degree compared to golf 20 or 30 years ago.

Knock,

No, you are correct. But if you remember, by the 4th hole there my left hip was numb and I hit nothing but draws off every tee but two. I've really tried to get more control of my ball flight and not rely on hitting a hard release draw every time and in doing so, a lot of shots now turn into weak wipes. To me, it feels like the clubface is lagging behind too much if I don't really release it and I'm wanting to get away from that for accuracy's sake. Yes, it will definitely cost me yardage, but my iron play has gotten so good I can get by. My new 3 wood feels completely different. The smaller head resists twisting far more than the "bobble head" driver I have (440 cc) and the bore through gives it a really stable feeling, even on mishits. Although, admittedly, the head is so small that I've yet to miss the center by more than an 1/8 of an inch. If nothing else, I certainly focus more with that club! In my secret personal opinion, after seeeing all the super high speed video out there and realizing how violent a collision the driver goes through with the ball at impact and how much twisting and bending occurs before the ball leaves the face, ESPECIALLY on mishits, that I feel the massive heads on drivers and switch to graphite is a big reason not much has really improved on that end of the game. This applies most directly to golfers with higher swing speeds. The graphite shaft can't resist the twisting that occurs at impact nearly as well as steel. As they say, making a low torque graphite shaft is very expensive. But steel is inherently low torque at around 1.5* I believe. To get a graphite shaft with that low torque would cost you about $500 for some exotic Japanese shaft. Anyhow, it's a very worthwhile debate and discussion and will only have a more clear answer with experience, so that's why I'm putting together this test driver and will let you guys know the test results. Your Members Vault dollars in action!



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:14am

An update, the S300 is 1.7* of torque, which is far and away beyond any graphite shaft easily attainable today.

On a side note, I went back and looked at some super slo mo footage of Tiger Woods at impact close up. It's from the SwingVision camera that you see on CBS. I've seen a lot of tour pros at impact on this camera and marvelled at how much the clubface would deloft or twist for a lot of these guys. Looking at Tiger's, it doesn't move at all. It's the craziest thing I've seen, it looks like the head is attached to a lead pipe. Unfortunately, I can't tell what shaft he had in there, it looks like the Diamana. It was taken at a Buick Open before the Sasquatch, it could have been a steel shaft, I don't know.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 9:19am

What technology was Lord Byron playing in 1945 when he set the season scoring average record that stood for "55" years until El Tigre broke it in 2000? 

Don't most of the pros play heavier shafts in 80-90 gram range?  I think Bob34 makes a valid point about the heavier shafts being more accurate.  I now have the 76 gram V2, up from the 65 gram, and my accuracy is much better. I know the ProForce V2 comes in a Tour Shop grade and the shafts are over 80 grams and cost $130 instead of $70.

I have a knockoff 360cc head from Hireko mounted on a Prolite 35 shaft that was the first driver I made about 3-4 years ago and I ocassionally take it out to the course for a spin and I swear I hit almost every fairway, but lose about 10-15 yards.  Hmmmm?

Chuck,

I have ditched my fairway woods for 16* & 19* hybrids and I can still reach par 5's up to the 535-545 yds. range.  The shafts are shorter than the fairway woods and much, much easier to control with a nice high ballflight for soft landing.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 9:25am
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

OP, Isn't it true though, that the "average joe" isn't really playing these longer courses? Sure, there's a bunch of new courses that are well over the 7,000 yard mark, but the majority of courses are still your average length muni. My home course is 6,800 yards and was built back in 1981 and no lengthening has ocurred. Every guy at my club has a brand new Ping G5 and they still can't play.  There are tons of old courses here in Orlando that are still at 6,500 yards, more than there are over 7,000. In fact, our longest public course is 7,400 yards from the tips, but the next tees up cut off about 500 yards total, making it play like a normal old course. It would seem that the "longer course syndrome" really doesn't impact the majority of players, although it certainly must have an impact. But the condition of these courses and quality of the greens and turf in general should make up for the few extra yards to some degree compared to golf 20 or 30 years ago.




Well, of course we're speaking in very broad generalities here, but a lot of "average joes" are playing on newer courses where the tips were intended for guys who are "tour long".  Even if Joe moves up one or two sets of tees, he's playing the course at more yards than he can reasonably handle.  Moreover, it seems to me that Pete Dye must be designing all the newer courses because every one I've played is stamped with his penal design philosophy.  But you know what?  That's what Joe wants.  Joe is a macho, macho man.  Read the ads for those courses.  They all boast of how "challenging" they are.  Joe pays good money to shoot 109, but by god he can boast to his pals that he played Torture Hills from the blues.

You're right that a lot of older courses haven't been lengthened, but I have to question the idea that scores aren't generally better on average than they were before the advent of metal woods, "game improvement" irons, composite shafts. and low-spin balls.  One has to have played in the persimmon, forged, steel shafted, wound balata era to have a sense of how technology has changed the game.   I've had many years of experience in both eras, and I can assure you the difference is as dramatic as the time when steel replaced hickory shafts.  If I'm not mistaken, you're approximately 30 years old.  If you took up golf at age 10, you were already into the early stages of the new technologies.  Did you ever play persimmon woods and wound balata balls when you were old enough and skilled enough to have a reasonable basis for comparing the experience with a 45", 460cc, high COR, low MOI, 9.5* driver with a nano-tech, 65 gram, firm tip, low torque, high kick point, pured and spined, etc., etc, shaft and a 4 piece, solid core, low spin, self-correcting dimple pattern ball? 

I'm not a golfing luddite.  I don't object to the new technologies.  They have helped me to play pretty good golf well into my 60's.  But I just want to make the point that these technologies have harmed the game in some ways.



Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 9:30am

OP,

How about the laminated wood heads and the wood would chip on each side of the face insert from the off center hits?  Hit it on the screws was every golfers dream.

 



Posted By: gwlee7
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 9:43am
I am "only" 43 so that makes me a young pup relative to some of our more "seasoned" members.  Nonetheless, I remember being in tears one time as a small child because I had ruined the last golf ball I had by hitting it thin.  Those balata balls my dad had given me could really smile.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 9:43am
Originally posted by hayes959 hayes959 wrote:

OP,

How about the laminated wood heads and the wood would chip on each side of the face insert from the off center hits?  Hit it on the screws was every golfers dream.

 



I had a set of laminated, Wilson Sam Snead woods way back in the 1950's, Hayes.  By "set", I mean driver, brassie, spoon, and cleek. 

We don't have to "hit it on the screws" any more, just somewhere on the face will do just fine. 



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 10:07am
Originally posted by gwlee7 gwlee7 wrote:

I am "only" 43 so that makes me a young pup relative to some of our more "seasoned" members.  Nonetheless, I remember being in tears one time as a small child because I had ruined the last golf ball I had by hitting it thin.  Those balata balls my dad had given me could really smile.


Oh god yes, how well I remember it.  The slighest bit thin and that new Titleist, Maxfli, or Spalding Dot was going in the shag bag with the rest of the smilies.  It was extra motivation to stay down on the ball and take a nice divot.
 
That reminds me, my shag bag was my most treasured possession back then.  I guarded it as if it were full of diamonds.  I carefully marked every ball with an indelible pen because my pals and I used to hit shags together out on the 6th fariway, and we had to have a way identify the balls when we picked them up.  Who has a shag bag these days?  I still have one that I use early in the spring and late in the fall when the range at my club is closed.  I still cherish the times when I'm out there alone in marginal weather flipping the balls into the bag with a wedge so I can hit them again.

Do you Brits call it a "shag bag", or do you reserve that expression for the girl you picked up down the pub when you weren't thinking straight or seeing very well? 



Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 10:44am
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

An update, the S300 is 1.7* of torque, which is far and away beyond any graphite shaft easily attainable today.

On a side note, I went back and looked at some super slo mo footage of Tiger Woods at impact close up. It's from the SwingVision camera that you see on CBS. I've seen a lot of tour pros at impact on this camera and marvelled at how much the clubface would deloft or twist for a lot of these guys. Looking at Tiger's, it doesn't move at all. It's the craziest thing I've seen, it looks like the head is attached to a lead pipe. Unfortunately, I can't tell what shaft he had in there, it looks like the Diamana. It was taken at a Buick Open before the Sasquatch, it could have been a steel shaft, I don't know.

 

Im pretty sure that was the Diamana he had in the old Ignite. He recently changed to a Graffaloy Bi-Matrix in the SQ Max Tour (you can only get this head if you are a tour player) and then I believe he switched bad to the Diamana in the SQ Tour head. 



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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 11:02am

I just checked the UST Tour Shop and reviewed the "Tour Shafts".  The Hybrid Irod shaft goes as high as 110 grams, the Harmon CB shafts go up to 100 grams and the V2 is 85 and 95 grams. 

I guess my question would be, if our steel iron shafts are normally around 115-130 grams, what is the benefit of having a 65 gram driver shaft?  Too light?  The pros are playing much heavier shafts in their drivers.  I don't know.



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 11:54am

hayes959,

As the ligher shafts get more and more torque, the pro's have the game to swing faster taking advantage of the lighter shaft and still get back to the ball square. A lot of pro's are using 65g drivers especially at courses where they consider distance more imprtant than accuracy.  But I think, Joe Avg benefits more from a heavier shaft because it promotes a  better swing path and has more torque than the ultra light shafts in the same price range.  Joe Avg isn't going to shell out the dough to buy a 65g with a torque rating less than 2.8.

Another advantage the big boys have is that they swap out shafts depending on the course that week. 

  



Posted By: Swing_King
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 12:11pm

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:


Do you Brits call it a "shag bag", or do you reserve that expression for the girl you picked up down the pub when you weren't thinking straight or seeing very well? 

 

 That's brought back more memories than I care to dwell over, buddy

Oh, and the answer is no!



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12Hcp
History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives.
- Abba Eban


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:04pm

Ok, my report back.

I brought both clubs out to the course today and hit them on the range and the course. Without question, I was more accurate with the steel shafted driver by a large margin. BUT, I can also say that this was most likely due to the weight and little else. My swing felt much more under control and when switching back and forth after every shot, it became very apparent how much "quicker" my tempo was through impact with the graphite shafted club. I made what felt more like a violent "lash" at the ball rather than a smooth acceleration through the ball. This was most likely what made the significant difference in accuracy but it was noticable. One of the guys made a comment that it didn't look like I spun out with the steel shafted club as much, not that I spun out, but even he could tell the swing was quicker. So, with that said, theoretically, I could probably get more speed with the toothpick, but my accuracy was down enough to encourage more testing with steel.

I really didn't feel much of a loss of distance and I really felt like that was due to the S300 feeling a little soft for me at 6.4. I felt like I really couldn't go after it. So, I'm switching to the X100 tonight and will see how that works. Overall, I noticed very little distance loss and the accuracy more than made up for it and the confidence, well - priceless. The feel was much better, and even better, it felt more like my irons and 3 wood so it gave a more consistent feel across the set.

Knock It Stiff,

If you are reading this, I see steel in your future, my friend!



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:16pm

AHHH Man!!!  Now hearing this I might have to try a heavier shaft in my driver.  Chuck why do you do this to me!!!!



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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:27pm
look at it this way, at $8 a pop, you can try a dozen and trim each one differently and still not be out the same cost as one graphite shaft! Not to mention, with your swing speed, you may just love it.

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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:29pm

Oneplaner, I have a shag bag Use it everyday

My course is only 5, 200 - 5, 500 yards and par 66 because it has no par 5's and last year it held the WALES CLUB PROFESSIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and  -1 after 36 holes won trust me you go 10 yards right or left of the fairway and you ahvent got a chance of going for the green and its hard to make birdies because there is no par 5's.

It doesent matter how much better technology is these days, they just need to make the courses as narrow and as punishing for going off line as mine is

American courses are just way to easy

 



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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:42pm

Ricky,

There are a few courses that I know of here in Orlando where if you go 10-15 yards left or right you are OB!!!!  I love these style courses thats for sure.



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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 4:44pm

yes mines the same waltice. When i go to other courses i feel im hitting at a 500 yard wide field! Its easy playing other courses.

On my course you are either OOB 15 yards left or right or in a PILE of trees where you can only chip out. Unless you ahve the imagination of Seve Ballesteros.

http://www.builthwellsgolf.co.uk/coursemap.php - http://www.builthwellsgolf.co.uk/coursemap.php  the 16th, 13th and 4th are basterd holes on my course. Oh yeah and the 11th par 3, jeeze thats hard. Oh and the 14th! The fairway slopes left, theres like no chance to stop it on the fairway when its real dry.



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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 5:40pm
I have put together the next test. An X100 with no tipping. It came in at 7.6 (yikes!) at 43.5" and D3. I will hit it tonight once it sets up a little. My hopes are that this feels a little less whippy than the S300 and more "with me" through impact and that it brings the flight down a little. It's actually 3 grams lighter than the S300, so weight won't be a problem, but the step pattern is definitely different.

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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 7:55pm

I'm back with good results. For me, the X100 felt much more controllable and less whippy, although I'd prefer a little less even. It was straighter for me than the S300 and much more so than the graphite. I would really like to tip this thing like an inch and try again, but the max tip with the bore through is only 1/2" to make it 43.5", so I'm kind of stuck as they don't make a stiffer shaft other than the Tour which is tough to get a hold of.

All in all, I haven't felt that in control of a drive in a while, but it did cost me some yardage. I measured it out to be about 10 yards on average, 15 max, which is a fair bit, no question. But, I was launching this higher than I would like to, so I think if I can bring the launch angle down I will be in a very good spot.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by RickyHarris RickyHarris wrote:

Oneplaner, I have a shag bag Use it everyday

My course is only 5, 200 - 5, 500 yards and par 66 because it has no par 5's and last year it held the WALES CLUB PROFESSIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP and  -1 after 36 holes won trust me you go 10 yards right or left of the fairway and you ahvent got a chance of going for the green and its hard to make birdies because there is no par 5's.

It doesent matter how much better technology is these days, they just need to make the courses as narrow and as punishing for going off line as mine is

American courses are just way to easy

 



Oh yeah!  Well come on over and try some of them.  Better bring your shag bag, too, young fella. 



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:16pm
I'm listening closely to the talk about trying a heavier shaft.  A pal of mine had a driver on the range the other day with an 85 gram shaft.  It was  some kind of composite shaft with an "S" flex.  I didn't get the brand and other specs.  The head was a Bridgestone 9.5.  I hit iabout 8 drives with it, all of them nutted with a nice launch angle and flat trajectory at the top.  I have a hard time hitting that shot with my 65 gram r7 with stock Fuji "S" shaft that is supposedly tip stiff.  I tend to launch it too high, and it doesn't flatten out at the top.  I hit it very straight, but I hit that 85 gram shaft as straight and farther.

On a similar note, I have a Callaway Steel Head 3+ fariway wood with an S/300 shaft.  It's long (for me) and very relieable.  How heavy would that S300 be approximatey?  Any idea?  In my hands it feels much heaviier that the 65 gram r7.  I like the heft of it.


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:29pm

OP, basically double the weight for the S300 compared to your graphite, depending on the final trimmed length. I would guess you're in the 115-120 gram range for that club.  Here is a link for the weights

http://truetemper.com/golf/dynamicgold.asp - http://truetemper.com/golf/dynamicgold.asp



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

OP, basically double the weight for the S300 compared to your graphite, depending on the final trimmed length. I would guess you're in the 115-120 gram range for that club.  Here is a link for the weights

http://truetemper.com/golf/dynamicgold.asp - http://truetemper.com/golf/dynamicgold.asp



Thanks, Chuck.  See what you've gone and done?  Now I'm thinking about getting the shaft in my r7 changed. 


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 28 July 2006 at 8:57pm
Oh man, now I'm getting in trouble with you too! You guys will be thanking me later! Seriously, I really think everyone going to 65 gram shafts in their driver when all their other clubs weigh 124 grams is not the best idea for better golfers. If the tour pros are any indication, they seem to agree as many play heavier graphite shafts in their drivers. I don't know of anyone playing steel in their driver but I know I like the X100 over my 66 gram V2 both in feel and in control.

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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 12:59am

Chuck,

I am reading all of this very closely buddy!  This is a great thread.  Funny thing is I went to Secondary's fitter today and all I can say is wow!  I need stiffer, heavier shafts in my clubs.  I went there primarily to test my irons as you know from the Project X Thread in the Club Building Thread.  I'm posting the results of my iron tests in that thread so I will stick to the driver test in this thread.

I"m sold on a much heavier shaft.  I thought the 76 gram Stiff V2 was the shaft for me, but that was until this dude asked me to swing the 96 gram V2.  Holy crap.  I've never felt a driver head more stable through impact!  1st swing and I knew I had struck gold. Furthermore, the heavier weight allowed me to swing smoother and naturally accelerate the club through impact.  No lashing at the ball as I'm prone to do with the driver, right Chuck

After 10 swings with the 96 gram I was hooked.  I'm also going to have my driver tipped at least a half inch to 44.5 inches.  The shorter length with the heavier shaft is the right combo for me. 

It's not quite steel, Chuck, but it's a big step in that direction.

I can't wait to get this done. 



Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 7:15am

Chuck, I find STOCK shafts in drivers are always slightly whippier than the real good shafts you can buy to PUT INTO your driver. Like I brought the Nike SasQuatch 9.5 stiff stock shaft earlier this week (broke my cobra one remember) and in my cobra I had an aldila 55g stiff shaft. Now in my Nike SasQuatch I have a mitshibushi Diamo (spelt somewhere near that) and its stiff shaft but ses its made for the club, it seems to be slightly whippier than the aldila.

I found the same when I once had a Cleveland 460 fujikura Regular shaft, that thing was also "made for the club" and it felt like a flamin senior shaft in my club!

Do they make these stock shafts whippier or something??

Also Chuck, SasQuatch has a real flat boring trajectory. A SasQuatch with a steel shaft might be good you no! See if you can try it out.



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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 8:04am

Ricky,

Manufacturers knows their consumers.  See the thing is, most golfers think they need a stiffer shaft than what they really need.  Most OEM's will lable a S Flex shaft but it really will be closer to a R Flex with a soft tip.  Since the majority of golfers need help getting the ball in the air.



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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 8:06am

Ah ok. I get what you mean.

Should of found a sasquatch with an aldila in it. Oh well.



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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 9:44am

Knock, that sounds like a great combination for you, you should be much more in control with that shaft. I really, really like the feel and feedback of the steel shaft but I can't get my launch low enough and I can't tip the shaft anymore, so I'm looking at some older heads to bring it down. Older as in this:

That's right, circa 1992. I'm going to put this on the exact same shaft and see how much the trajectory and launch angle is affected solely by the clubhead alone. The 983E is giving me a very high launch and I'm not keen on it, although I'm hitting it stupidly straight.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 11:22am

I love it.  Chuck's going old school on us.  For his next trick, Mr. Quinton will be playing hickory shafts with persimmon heads for his driver and 3-wood  And wait a minute, is that a feathery he's playing as well. 

Seriously, this is a great thread.  I'm glad you started it.  You will be soley responsible for several members on this forum dropping some cash on new shafts, etc..  I don't mind spending the cash as long as I get the right results. 



Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 12:35pm

Chuck, you know what? I am thinking about getting a steel shaft in my nike sasquatch lol! Today I was hitting my mates titliest 3 wood which is fitted with a stiff shaft and you just cant go wrong with it. Its awesome!

Would a stiff steel shaft go well in a 460cc driver? Also how much do you think I would have to pay because I have about 25 pocket money hanging around which im dieing to spend LOL.

My swing speed is 105-110mph with a driver, would a stiff steel shaft be just about right? And whats the difference between the x100 and x300 ?

Cheers,

Rick



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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: waltice
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 2:32pm
X 300 will be heavier than the X100

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Current USGA Handicap: .1

http://howtopracticegolf.wordpress.com/2012/09/27/practicing-golf-on-the-driving-range-and-make-huge-improvements/ - How I practice and teach golf


Posted By: RickyHarris
Date Posted: 29 July 2006 at 2:35pm

Ok, shouldent of posted my last post because 5 minutes ago my coach ses he isnt going to let me put steel shaft in.

the B******D!



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2 years 9 months playing golf, 6 handicap golfer, 15 years old and learning about the golf swing everyday. :-)!


Posted By: acepepper
Date Posted: 30 July 2006 at 12:14pm
When i first started playing about three years ago, I bought a steel shafted, Howson driver that was as cheap as chips and I used to hit 250 - 270, straight as an arrow. In fact, when i went to the range, I never even used to take it out of the bag to practice with it, I was that confident. Then this voice in my head said, "How much further would you be able to hit it if you bought one of those titanium monsters." So I did and threw my old Howson in the garbage. Since then, I've never found a single driver (and I've tried more than a few), that I could hit either straight or consistently well and my swing has gone to hell in this process of trying.
 
The saying, "if it aint broke, don't fix it," comes to mind.
 
 


Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 30 July 2006 at 9:11pm

Well, I got to play with the 983E with the X100 on a different course today. I played the King and the Bear track at the World Golf Village in St. Augustine today. It's a great course btw, but my purpose here is to report back about using the driver. The simple stat is that I hit 13 of 14 fairways. The fairway I missed was because I was hitting the ball too high and I moved it back in my stance a little and blocked it. I missed the fairway by 2 yards to the right as the hole was a dogleg left. I hit the driver stupidly straight, I mean like, lob wedge straight. Center cut everytime, but there was one huge problem. I was launching the ball so high I was worried about taking out low flying aircraft. It was to the point that my driving average was between 250-270. While I don't believe this has anything to do with the fact that I switched back to steel, it is killing me. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am at least 50% straighter with the driver and my misses are so soft it's like cheating.

I'm blaming the high flight on the clubhead and the lower kickpoint of the X100. TT DG shafts in the irons have a much higher kick point than their wood shaft counterparts, so I'm guessing this is part of it. I'm trying to get my hands on an old PT driver or 975D to see if that changes the launch as I will put the same shaft in it. All in all, no question that for me heavier is the way to go and steel is definitely still in the running.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 9:39am

Chuck, et.al,

Please be reminded of my earlier post about UST having a line of "Tour Shop" shafts with graphite shafts as heavy as 100 grams, including the V2.  There are much heavier graphite shafts available if we seek them out.



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 11:01am

hayes959,

Great point. The Accra line by UST also has some pretty hefty shafts with lotsa torque.  Problem is like you said, they're hard to come by for us normal folk. 

 



Posted By: secondary
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 12:20pm
http://www.bombsquadgolf.com - www.bombsquadgolf.com   go look in their tour shop.  If they don't have it, ask them and they will get it.

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Tucson Arizon, Index down to 11!


Posted By: jonesterp
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 2:51pm

Please excuse my ignorance about all of this kind of thing. So what we are saying here is that a heavier shaft is better. But I can't understand why, although I don't doubt it in the least.

I play a Cleveland 3 wood  with a stock, regular flex, 65 gram shaft and a 460 comp with a Graffaloy, Pro Launch 65, stiff shaft. I really have gotten a lot better in the last few months. Right now, when I swing them both thing and do what I know to be right, relaxed hands, turn through and let the club release, I am hitting the mother of all hooks, I cannot keep it thing on the planet

So of course I try to self correct and hold off just a bit, but then I just I hit it right. Every once in a while I will time it correctly and hit straight.

I want to be able to make a controlled aggressive swing and let the club head release true and full with passive hands and arms and not worry about the ball  going left.   

My swing is available in the members vault, not much has changed with it, except my backswing isn't nearly as flat and it is significantly shorter, which has allowed me to be more in sync through to the ball.

I know this was a lot. If anyone has any thoughts. I am all ears.

 



Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 5:40pm
jones, what are you asking about the different shafts? Those two shafts are like comparing apples and oranges, the only thing that is the same is the weight.

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Posted By: jonesterp
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 6:05pm

I did a HORRIBLE job phrasing that question. I reread it moments after I posted it and realized it made no damned sense.

I realized that there is really no way for anyone to tell me what I need to know without seeing me swing etc. I am just hitting hooks more with this 3 wood and I think it is because it is such a soft stock shaft, if that makes sense.

The driver isn't as bad. But I am too inconsistent to really know what to do with it.

I am just intrigued by the idea of heavier shafts and wondered why a heavier shaft is better. A laymens terms simple explanation if that is possible.

I am starting to understand my swing and how keeping everything compact and in sync is actually more important than any single body part or move.



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 6:28pm

jonesterp,

A lighter shaft supposedly makes it easier to generate more clubhead speed but with the negative effect of loss of control and consistancy.  Additionally, lighter shafts often have less torque which is required to keep the new massive clubheads from twisting further reducing control and consistancy. I would think a heavier shaft might help someone who fights a hook.  I have less trouble hooking my driver than I do my 3 wood since I moved to a heavier shaft in the driver than I have in my 3 wood. I'll be fixing that soon by going to around a 90g shaft for my 3 wood.

Hope that helps some.

-Bob

 



Posted By: Chuck Quinton
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 6:47pm

Bob, I think you mean MORE torque. More torque means the shaft twists more and is thus, theoretically, less consistent.

The main thing about a heavier shaft has little to do with torque, it has to do with the weight evening it our your swing, making it more smooth and under control. The ultra light shafts and heads make it easier for you to manipulate the club with the hands. Imagine the difference between swinging a twig off a tree vs. swinging 20 pound sledge hammer and you can see that the sledge would have a lot more centrifugal force and be much more difficult to manipulate or get quick with.



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http://www.rotaryswing.com - Golf Instruction for How to Practice & Improve


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 01 August 2006 at 9:17pm

Hayes,

I hear you about the UST Tour Pro Shop.  The fitter I use has access to the Tour Pro Shop and can get me any shaft from there.  I'm putting a 96 gram V2 in my driver.  It is the most stable and awesome feeling at impact with the heavier shaft.

 



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Current Handicap Index: 8.2


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 9:15am

jonesterp,

I think the point is the driver is the lightest total weight club in the bag because the driver head is the lightest head of all clubs and the normal 65 gram driver shaft is half the weigh of the steel shafts in irons.  Most players have much more control with their irons.  Anyone ever see anyone hook or slice and iron 40 yds.?  That is probably due to the heavier total weight of the club.  I may be the poster child for this discussion as I am a pretty darn good iron player and play my 3&4 irons better than most good players. I historically, no matter what the club, struggle with fairway woods and drivers with graphite shafts.  My current driver has the 76 gram V2 shaft and I have better control with this club.  Chuck's feedback in this thread has me seriously considering going to a 90 or 100 gram graphite shaft in my driver.  It just makes sense.  Tiger's first graphite shaft when he switched from steel, weighed 110 grams.  He wanted control.



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 02 August 2006 at 11:29am
Originally posted by Chuck Quinton Chuck Quinton wrote:

Bob, I think you mean MORE torque. More torque means the shaft twists more and is thus, theoretically, less consistent.

Right, sorry about that...

The main thing about a heavier shaft has little to do with torque, it has to do with the weight evening it our your swing, making it more smooth and under control. The ultra light shafts and heads make it easier for you to manipulate the club with the hands. Imagine the difference between swinging a twig off a tree vs. swinging 20 pound sledge hammer and you can see that the sledge would have a lot more centrifugal force and be much more difficult to manipulate or get quick with.

I didn't mean to over emphasize the importance of less torque in heavier shafts but it seemed to me that I did much better on the launch monitor with shafts that had less torque no matter what weight they were.  Typically, lighter shafts with less torque are more expensive than just buying a heavier shaft and a heavier shaft typically already has less torque so for the same price range you get the best of both worlds...

 

 



Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 10:00am

I've been kind of bird dogging this heaiver shaft thing and have read several reviews/testimonials from guys who went back to steel shafts of shorter lengths in their drivers. 44" or 43.5", and are hitting the ball much straighter and some are even seeing an increase in distance because they are hitting the center of the clubface more often. 

I am ordering the components today to make up a driver and hybrids with steel shafts for a little experimentation in the coming weeks.



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 10:15am
Originally posted by hayes959 hayes959 wrote:

I've been kind of bird dogging this heaiver shaft thing and have read several reviews/testimonials from guys who went back to steel shafts of shorter lengths in their drivers. 44" or 43.5", and are hitting the ball much straighter and some are even seeing an increase in distance because they are hitting the center of the clubface more often. 

I am ordering the components today to make up a driver and hybrids with steel shafts for a little experimentation in the coming weeks.



That should be very interesting stuff, Hayes.  Hurry it up, will ya?  I'm anxious to see the results. 



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http://www.squidoo.com/creating-and-increasing-lag-in-the-golf-swing - How to increase golf swing lag


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 11:44am

OP,

I ordered Next Day.  Is that fast enough?

Read a couple of technical articles that stated better players should play steel shafts for the control.  Steel is consistently more accurate and the craze for more distance has fueled the mass switch over to graphite.  Tom Wishon has stated that a graphite shafted driver will deliver 6-12 more yards with less control vs. a stell shafted driver.  Control vs. distance is a personal preference.  I read several articles where guys switched out the steel and graphite shafts in the same irons and chose the steel for the accuracy.

I was thinking about the teaching pro at our course and this discussion may relate to him.  He is a great long iron player with steel shafts.  Put a graphite shafted hybrid, fairway wood, or driver in his hands and all hell breaks loose and he hits balls OB.  Maybe the lighter shafts are his problem.

I just ordered the components to give it a try.  We'll see.



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 03 August 2006 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by hayes959 hayes959 wrote:

OP,

I ordered Next Day.  Is that fast enough?

Read a couple of technical articles that stated better players should play steel shafts for the control.  Steel is consistently more accurate and the craze for more distance has fueled the mass switch over to graphite.  Tom Wishon has stated that a graphite shafted driver will deliver 6-12 more yards with less control vs. a stell shafted driver.  Control vs. distance is a personal preference.  I read several articles where guys switched out the steel and graphite shafts in the same irons and chose the steel for the accuracy.

I was thinking about the teaching pro at our course and this discussion may relate to him.  He is a great long iron player with steel shafts.  Put a graphite shafted hybrid, fairway wood, or driver in his hands and all hell breaks loose and he hits balls OB.  Maybe the lighter shafts are his problem.

I just ordered the components to give it a try.  We'll see.



That's plenty fast enough, pards.    I don't know that I want to go all the way to steel in my driver, but I'm definitely thinking about a heavier shaft in graphite, maybe 85-90 grams.  I currently have a 65 gram stock Fuji shaft in the r7.



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http://www.squidoo.com/creating-and-increasing-lag-in-the-golf-swing - How to increase golf swing lag


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 12:20am

Hayes,

If the steel doesn't work, try the 96 gram V2.  It's amazing.  I'm reshafting my driver with that. 

 



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Current Handicap Index: 8.2


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 8:20am

Below is a swingweight chart.  Prior to the lightweight graphite shaft mania, the total club weights from from SW to Driver were in  a somewhat uniform progression.  No wonder we struggle with the fairway wood and driver.   The total dynamics of how the club feels and plays is changed by a graphite shaft that weights half as much as the shafts in all our other clubs.

 

Pre-Calculating Swingweight*The shaft swingweight equivalent is for illustration purposes only. Unlike the other three factors, as shaft weight changes its effect on swingweight changes at a disproportionate rate. For estimation purposes, however, the above shaft weight to swingweight equivalent is acceptable.

Swingweight Factors
Swingweight Change Increase Factor By S.W. Factor Decrease Factor By S.W. Change
+1 2 Grams Headweight 2 Grams -1
+3 1/2 inch Club Length 1/2 inch -3
-1 4 Grams Grip Weight 4 Grams +1
+1* 9 Grams Shaft Weight 9 Grams -1*

The shaft swingweight equivalent is for illustration purposes only. Unlike the other hree factors, as shaft weight changes its effect on swingweight changes at a disproportionate rate. For estimation purposes, however, the above shaft weight-to-swingweight equivalent is acceptable.

Standard Swingweight Calculatin Through A Set
Club Headweight Raw Shaft Weight Grip Weight Club Length Swingweight
1 Wood 198g 125g 52g 43" DO
3 Wood 208g 125g 52g 42" DO
4 Wood 213g 125g 52g 41.5" DO
5 Wood 218g 125g 52g 41" DO
7 Wood 228g 125g 52g 40" DO
1 Iron 230g 125g 52g 39.5" DO
2 Iron 237g 125g 52g 39" DO
3 Iron 244g 125g 52g 38.5" DO
4 Iron 251g 125g 52g 38" DO
5 Iron 258g 125g 52g 37.5" DO
6 Iron 265g 125g 52g 37" DO
7 Iron 272g 125g 52g 36.5 DO
8 Iron 279g 125g 52g 36" D0
9 Iron 286g 125g 52g 35.5" D0
PW 293g 125g 52g 35.5" D3
PW 305g 125g 52g 35.5" D6

Raw Shaft Weight is based on a 45" UDWS (parallel tip True Temper Dynamic S-flex for woods) and a 39" UDIC (parallel tip True Temper Dynamic S-flex for irons). With proper trimming and installation, each shaft's weight will drop slightly through the set. Grip weight is basded onthe average weight of an M58 Golf Pride Men's Green Victory rubber grip. Although both the UDWS and UDIC shafts possess .600" butt diameters, most clubmakers purchase M58 (.580 core) grips. Therefore, the above chart reflects the installation of a .580 core grip. Traditionally the sand wedge and pitching wedge are designed to play at higher swingweights than the 1-9 irons. Shaft balance point is a paramenter that is dependent upon specific shaft trimming. This shaft characteristic may have an impact on swingweight as well, particularly with a tip heavy or butt heavy design. This table appeared in Clubmaker's Digest, Vol 11, Number 4. Issue No. 90



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 04 August 2006 at 8:23am

OP,

A $10 steel shaft if for experimenting only.  Much cheaper than plopping down big $$$ for a heavier graphite shaft and doinking it.  If I do hit it much straighter with the steel shaft, then I am going for a new big dog with something like a 100 gram graphite shaft.  The professional who won this year's NJ Open Championship was playing a 100 gr. graphite shaft.

about 6-7 years ago, I purchased a Taylormade SuperSteel driver.  When I got into the Titanium and Graphite age, I sold the SS driver.  That SS driver was the most accurate driver I ever owned and after selling I wondered why I sold it if I was hitting it so good.  The SuperSteel driver was steel shafted and 43.5" long.  And I wonder why I was so accurate with it.

 



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!


Posted By: Knock It Stiff
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 7:49pm
Interestingly enough, last night on the range I decided to choke down on my driver so it played more like 44".  I couldn't miss, and the distance was still stellar.  I'm sold.  I'm putting a heavier shaft (96g V2) in the driver and i'm tipping it at least a 1/2 inch.  My current shaft is 76g.  I can crush it with this shaft, but the misses are still way too erratic.  I need  more control, and the heavier shaft with a slightly shorter shaft seems to be the ticket.

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Current Handicap Index: 8.2


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 9:26pm

KIS,

About an hour ago I put together the driver and hybrids with the DG S300 shafts.  Taking them out for a spin tomorrow.  If I play several rounds with much improved accuracy, that V2 in 96 gram in in the bag real soon.  I played the V2 in 65 gram and am now playing the 76 gram which I like much better.  The V2 is a great shaft.



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 05 August 2006 at 9:27pm
Originally posted by hayes959 hayes959 wrote:

OP,

A $10 steel shaft if for experimenting only.  Much cheaper than plopping down big $$$ for a heavier graphite shaft and doinking it.  If I do hit it much straighter with the steel shaft, then I am going for a new big dog with something like a 100 gram graphite shaft.  The professional who won this year's NJ Open Championship was playing a 100 gr. graphite shaft.

about 6-7 years ago, I purchased a Taylormade SuperSteel driver.  When I got into the Titanium and Graphite age, I sold the SS driver.  That SS driver was the most accurate driver I ever owned and after selling I wondered why I sold it if I was hitting it so good.  The SuperSteel driver was steel shafted and 43.5" long.  And I wonder why I was so accurate with it.

 



That's a good idea, Hayes.  I'm more than half afraid to mess with my driver for fear it won't work, and I'll end up having spent money for something that isn't as good as what I've got.  It's the old "devil you know" syndrome. 



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http://www.squidoo.com/creating-and-increasing-lag-in-the-golf-swing - How to increase golf swing lag


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 07 August 2006 at 2:12pm

That 125 gr. DGS300 shaft if heavy and stiff......but.....the ball goes much straighter with "more accurate", "less damaging " misses.  I hit it straighter, and lost about 10-15 yds. in distance.  Consistently drove it 250-265.  The steel shafted hybrids were more accurate also.  With the steel shafts., it feels like I can just rip it, and never hook it left.  HOwever, the more I tried to rip it, the greater teh tendnecy to go right.  I hit driver 10 times yesterday and most shots were right side fairway, or right rough, with one wide right in the tree line.  The accuracy is a real plus.  I need to find a lighter, softer shaft.  I ordered the TX-90 steel shafts, 106 gram and in regular flex to take for  a test drive.  The TX-90 will have a higher ballflight.



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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 07 August 2006 at 5:05pm
Just returned from an "emergency 9."  Shot 1-under from the tips and missed 1 fairway with the "retro driver."  Longest iron into a green was a 7-iron.  Starting to get the feel for steel.  Now I know why Byron Nelson played so well back in 1945.

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http://buildperfectgolfswing.blogspot.com/2012/09/step-1-in-building-perfect-golf-swing.html - The secret to building the best golf swing in the world!



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