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Fred Couples

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mbarry View Drop Down
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    Posted: 21 February 2006 at 9:46am
First off, thanks so much for all the information on this site. I read
Hardy's book last year and have adopted some of the OPS ideas into my
swing. Before that I always considered Ernie Els' book as a model for a
"classic" swing. Mr. Quinton's info seems a synthesis of these and other
ideas, and a good one at that.

After watching Fred Couples play at the Nissan, and after years of
admiring his rhythmic fluidity, I went back and looked at his book "Total
Shotmaking". He really seems to be a two plane swinger. Does anyone see
parts of his swing outside of his tempo that are compatible with a ops?

What about a strong grip with an open stance like his? It seems like a
recipe for a big hook. In the book he claims that "cupping" his wrists
helps to avoid a hook and fade the ball. He obviously has great athletic
ability and timing.

Boy I wish I could swing like that, but It seems he uses his hands a lot and
has a bit of a lateral move too. Plus he crosses the line on most shots.

Thanks for your input.
MB
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Hogan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 1:43pm

In my opiniom one can not be much more of a Two Plane golfer than Fred Couples. Do not look to find any OPS in his action, it is not there...

Hogan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 1:56pm
For some reason, the discussion of hybrid swings of great players like
Freddie, Fuyrk, Daly, JB Holmes, the young Jack Nicklaus, Gay Brewer,
Miller Barber, Byron Nelson, etc. inspires dogmatic posts like the one
from "Hogan" immediately above that flatly contradicts Hardy, the person
who invented the concept, and definition, of the OPS and TPS. In Hardy's
opinion (and this is well documented) these players have a two plane top
of the backswing position but reroute their arms, hands and clubs into a
downswing with one plane characteristics: arms behind the chest,
rotating around the body, as compared to the typical two plane
downswing of arms in front of the chest, swinging up and down in front
of the body. It is amazing the amount of pointless back and forth there
has been on this topic both here and on other forums.

Chuck's downswing mantra is to rotate the body with passive arms:
Freddie certainly does that, in fact his right arm is so limp, the right hand
comes off the grip after impact (similar to two planer Vijay)!

Edited by Baffy
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Hogan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hogan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 2:25pm

I think that this is the point that has ruined many golfers learning in the past. We could state that EVERY swing is or has one plane or two plane concepts. I find it comical that on could look at Fred Couples swing and think it has one plane aspects. If rotating the body is only done in a one plane swing than are there any two plane swings. Hardy himself gave the concept of two swings to try and clear things up. When one introduces a third swing "hybrid" it does no justice and service to anyone...

I know Fred fairly well and can tell you that a one plane swing is not on his mind, AT ALL. BTW it has been pointed out on this site as well that VJ's finish is not that of a classic one planner, so your point further stenghtens my statement. (VJ straightens his spine at impact...)

Hogan

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 2:36pm

Guys

Fred Couples is a great player, but watching the Nissan Classic on the last holes, he really lost his timing and sliced a 3w 50m to the right...  I did not want that for Freddie, but he got tense and lost his relaxed and effective swing.  That is a 2PS weakness.

On the other hand, Rory Sabatini has a very unique swing Wink

Jon Arne
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyfishin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by Hogan Hogan wrote:

I know Fred fairly well and can tell you that a one plane swing is not on his mind, AT ALL.

Hogan



If you believe the commentators, lounging on the couch is what is usually on his mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mikec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 3:03pm
Baffy:

Come on Baffy, what are you saying? Would you look to Fred if you were teaching somebody a OPS? Let's see here. I think if you take the club outside with a strong grip and then shift your hips laterally and drop the club way inside and then whip your hands through impact by a fierce rolling of the forearms that you have been doing since you were ten years old that only works for you, you will have  enough of the OPS characterisitics there to be a real good example of a hybrid  OPS. Give me a break. Why do you want to create such confusion?

I second Hogan DOGMATICALLY: 'Do not look to find any OPS in his action, it is not there'

PS Baffy: Read Couples book. There ain't nothin' passive about his hand/arm action in the DS.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Knock It Stiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 3:15pm

Jonag,

Good observation about Freddie losing his composure and coming apart on the last 4 holes.  He was clearly nervous having not been in that position much lately.  However, that's not just a 2PS weakness.  I don't care what type of swing you have--1PS/2PS/Hybrid--if you get nervous and stop committing to your shots you are going to come apart in the heat of competition.  True, the 2PS relies more on timing, and if your timing is a hair off you will struggle, but nerves and tension (and any less than positive emotion for that matter) will destroy any swing and cause bad shots.  Bad thoughts lead to bad swings--1PS or 2PS.

Just my thoughts.

Dean

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 3:23pm
Originally posted by Hogan Hogan wrote:

I think that this is the point that has ruined many
golfers learning in the past. We could state that EVERY swing is or has one
plane or two plane concepts. I find it comical that on could look at Fred
Couples swing and think it has one plane aspects. If rotating the body is
only done in a one plane swing than are there any two plane swings.
Hardy himself gave the concept of two swings to try and clear things
up. When one introduces a third swing "hybrid" it does no justice and
service to anyone...


I know Fred fairly well and can tell you that a one plane swing is not on
his mind, AT ALL. BTW it has been pointed out on this site as well that
VJ's finish is not that of a classic one planner, so your point further
stenghtens my statement. (VJ straightens his spine at impact...)


Hogan



Hardy himself introduced the concept of the hybrid. "I find it comical" that
you accept his OPS and TPS concepts, but reject his "hybrid" category.
Hardy had this to say recently (this is part of a longer post on his site):

"...In fact I just gave an excellent hy-bred a lesson at the Hope;
Jeff Sluman. A two-plane swing by definition of the top of backswing,
but when playing well, like Jim Furyk, get his arms tied into his body turn
in a beautiful one-plane impact position.
So instead of making it
easier for all of you, I've probably made this seem more complicated. It is
complicated, once you leave a "pure" swing and start to introduce cross
elements...It is fine with me to use the terms one or two-plane swings
based on the top of swing. It is also fine with me to identify hy-bred
swings (like Furyk, John Daly, Couples, Sluman) that can change
swing types in mid-stream and call them hy-breds or one-plane impact
players, etc.

JH"





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 February 2006 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by mikec mikec wrote:

Baffy:

Come on Baffy, what are you saying? Would you look to Fred if you were
teaching somebody a OPS? Let's see here. I think if you take the club
outside with a strong grip and then shift your hips laterally and drop
the club way inside and then whip your hands through impact by a fierce
rolling of the forearms that you have been doing since you were ten
years old that only works for you, you will have  enough of the
OPS characterisitics there to be a real good example of a hybrid 
OPS. Give me a break. Why do you want to create such confusion?

I second Hogan DOGMATICALLY: 'Do not look to find any OPS in his
action, it is not there'

PS Baffy: Read Couples book. There ain't nothin' passive about his hand/
arm action in the DS.

 



I'm sorry if the truth hurts, but Hardy calls him a hybrid and says his
downswing has OPS characteristics. If you don't like it, go argue with him.
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