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Causes of a slice

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doverall View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 June 2006 at 10:09am
Was reading one of Hank Haney's books and in it he talks about slices and hooks. One of the things he says is there is a common misconception of what causes a slice. He goes on to say how people are quick to say things like you have an out-to-in swing, casting, weak grip etc etc. and that these all cause a slice.

He the states that all of these thing will accentuate a slice but dont actually cause a slice. What causes a slice is an open club face at impact and that to then fix this you need to work out what is causing it to stay open at impact.

His reasoning for this is that say for instance you swing out-to-in this doesnt cause a slice because if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it. This all sounds pretty logical to me but would like to know what other peopls think on this.


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One Planer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One Planer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2006 at 6:57pm
Hank is right.
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lpratt17 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lpratt17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 June 2006 at 4:45am

I also agree with Hank.

OnePlaner, I would swear that you are arguing differently on another thread, because I'm sure that we disagreed on this subject.  You stated that club face determined direction, not spin.  Perhaps we agree afterall and we just don't understand each others explanations.

Either way doverall, I agree that an open club face causes the slice.  A few things to consider: make sure you are not sliding forward on the DS, make sure the butt is pointing somewhere between your zipper and your pleat of the front leg at address.  The last one recently affected me.  Fixing this fault completely changed my results for the good over the last few weeks.  Not even a trace of slice.  One other thing to consider is making sure the hands are not trying to initiate the DS.  This won't necessarily keep the face open, but it will cause an out to in swing path.

Good luck, lpratt.

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randini View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 July 2006 at 5:06pm

Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Was reading one of Hank Haney's books and in it he talks about slices and hooks. One of the things he says is there is a common misconception of what causes a slice. He goes on to say how people are quick to say things like you have an out-to-in swing, casting, weak grip etc etc. and that these all cause a slice.

He the states that all of these thing will accentuate a slice but dont actually cause a slice. What causes a slice is an open club face at impact and that to then fix this you need to work out what is causing it to stay open at impact.

His reasoning for this is that say for instance you swing out-to-in this doesnt cause a slice because if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it. This all sounds pretty logical to me but would like to know what other peopls think on this.


 1p you said Haney was right .

 Haney is right. Yet you insist clubface angle determines initial direction .

 Contradiction.

 I ask you.................what is the initial direction of a pull? What is the initial direction of a push? Why is it called a pull or push ? Face angle ? Impact , rotation , & seperation ? Path ? What  does path mean ? Just how does swing path affect flight ?

 Haney says an out to in swing (path) doesn't cause a slice..........it's the open clubface (clubface angle) at impact that causes the slice. Or the closed face with the out to in causes a pull hook. And you agree with that ?

 Both swings (out to in ) are pulls. Right? Yet one is a slice & the other is a hook. The difference?..........is it path or angle seperation? And the difference shows up in the latter part of the flight..................or does it ? 

  What is the initial direction  of both of these shots ? Is it straight down the target line ? Is it a push path? Is it a pull path ?

 If both are pulls................what direction do they leave the at/ rest position?  Are they pulls because the (out to in) path is a pull path? Is it called a pull for a reason?..........is the reason for the term pull & push  the path of the swing or the angle of the face @ impact?

  Do both leave on a pull path?    push path ? straight down target line?

    

  We should change terminology from pull hook & pull slice to face- angle hook & face- angle slice. Why even use the word pull & push if the ball isn't pulled or pushed because of the swing-path relative to the alignment of the player & target line?

  Haney says the out to in(path) doesn't cause the slice...it's the face-angle(open).............that I agree with. Does the ball leave on a pull path then spin to the open....................or leave on an initial slice direction ?

My initial direction is on the path I swing. .....................I'm not talking about a putting stroke...............................& my shots curves in flight as a result of the angle of the face @ impact in conjunction with the speed of my path.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MeltDownZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2006 at 12:29am

Originally posted by doverall doverall wrote:

Was reading one of Hank Haney's books and in it he talks about slices and hooks. One of the things he says is there is a common misconception of what causes a slice. He goes on to say how people are quick to say things like you have an out-to-in swing, casting, weak grip etc etc. and that these all cause a slice.

He the states that all of these thing will accentuate a slice but dont actually cause a slice. What causes a slice is an open club face at impact and that to then fix this you need to work out what is causing it to stay open at impact.

His reasoning for this is that say for instance you swing out-to-in this doesnt cause a slice because if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it. This all sounds pretty logical to me but would like to know what other peopls think on this.


Hank is correct.  It's simple physics.  While there can be endless debates about various causes and effects in the golf swing, this isn't one of them.  Now, answering the question of why your clubface is open at impact, that's another story :)

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priceunderpar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote priceunderpar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2006 at 2:00am
One planer is confused again but this time I agree with him. I told him path determined starting direction and he disagreed with me. I guess I have to teach Tiger to be credible.
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randini View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randini Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2006 at 1:49am

Originally posted by One Planer One Planer wrote:

Hank is right.

 

 there is your agreement with Hank

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One Planer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2006 at 9:14am
OK, here we go again.   Just as I thought, we're interpreting Hank's statement differently but coming to the same conclusion that an open face causes a slice.

Hank is right in saying that an open clubface causes a slice, regardless of the path of the club through the ball.   At impact, the clubface is open.  During the compression phase, it remains open.  In other words, the toe doesn't rotate sufficiently to counteract the open face.  At separation, then, the face is still open.  The ball will start to the right of the path (90 degrees to the face plane at that instant) and curve farther to the right in flight.

If the toe had rotated sufficiently during the compression phase to offset the slice spin, you wouldn't have a slice.  You'd have something else depending on the net effect of slice spin caused by an open face at impact and hook spin caused by clubface rotation during compression.  Regardless of that interplay, the ball would have left the clubface in the direction the face was looking at separation.

If you agree with that, then you agree with what I've been explaining about the dynamics of impact all along.  So why all the argumentation?

Randini, the answer to all your questions can be extrapolated from what I wrote above.  Put your thinking cap on. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote priceunderpar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2006 at 2:12am

I don't remember Hank saying anything about all this mumbo jumbo OP:

At impact, the clubface is open.  During the compression phase, it remains open.  In other words, the toe doesn't rotate sufficiently to counteract the open face.  At separation, then, the face is still open.  The ball will start to the right of the path (90 degrees to the face plane at that instant) and curve farther to the right in flight.

If the toe had rotated sufficiently during the compression phase to offset the slice spin, you wouldn't have a slice.  You'd have something else depending on the net effect of slice spin caused by an open face at impact and hook spin caused by clubface rotation during compression.  Regardless of that interplay, the ball would have left the clubface in the direction the face was looking at separation.

I remember him saying:

swinging out-to-in doesn't cause a slice because: if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it.

Here is what he said:

Out-to-in path + square clubface = pull (ball starts and continues on a straight line left of target line.)

Out-to-in swing + closed face = pullhook (It will start straight left and curve more left.

What wasn't said but also holds true:

Out-to in path + open face= pull fade or pull slice (ball starts left & curves right).

Q. What is the common variable??? 

A. Out-to-in path

Q. What is the only changing variable?

A. Clubface position.

Q.What is the common result?    

A. The Ball starts left

Q. What is the only varied result?

A. Ball curvature or lack thereof.

I flip the variables in the other thread 

Conclusion:

Hank says that OP's theory that the clubface determines the starting direction of ball flight more so than the path of the club, is  

 


 



Edited by priceunderpar
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote One Planer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 July 2006 at 11:21am
Originally posted by priceunderpar priceunderpar wrote:

I don't remember Hank saying anything about all this mumbo jumbo OP:

Hank was keeping it simple for the simple minded.  

At impact, the clubface is open.  During the compression phase, it remains open.  In other words, the toe doesn't rotate sufficiently to counteract the open face.  At separation, then, the face is still open.  The ball will start to the right of the path (90 degrees to the face plane at that instant) and curve farther to the right in flight.

If the toe had rotated sufficiently during the compression phase to offset the slice spin, you wouldn't have a slice.  You'd have something else depending on the net effect of slice spin caused by an open face at impact and hook spin caused by clubface rotation during compression.  Regardless of that interplay, the ball would have left the clubface in the direction the face was looking at separation.

I remember him saying:

swinging out-to-in doesn't cause a slice because: if the club face was square to this swing path you would pull it, and if it was closed you would pull-hook it.

Here is what he said:

Out-to-in path + square clubface = pull (ball starts and continues on a straight line left of target line.)

I thought we were talking about a slice, Price.  is this what he actually said, or is it you extrapolationg from incomplete variables again?

If Hank actually said this, he didn't give us enough information.  He's right that this ball would start to the left of the target line and directly along a tangent to the path, but it might continue straight, or it might curve left or right, depending on the other variables.  How open was the face at impact, and how much did the toe rotate around the heel during compression?

Out-to-in swing + closed face = pullhook (It will start straight left and curve more left.

This ball would start even more to the left than the one above because the ball would leave to the left of the path (90* to the face plane at separation).  It would likely curve more left because the toe rotation would probably be suffcient to offset the spin imparted by the face angle at impact, which could have been open, square, or closed.  Again, we don't have enough information.

What wasn't said but also holds true:

This is getting tedious, so I'll stop right here.  Besides you switched colors on me, and it will get too confusing. 

I'll just say in closing that you can't analyze ball flight unless you take all of the variables that affect ball flight into account.  Your argument assumes a static clubface when it is obvious that the clubface rotates through impact and affects the axis of spin when the ball comes off the face at separation.  Axis of spin is what makes the ball curve.  Ignoring that variable renders your analyses incomplete at best and invalid at worst. 

<snipped the rest of Price's incomplete and/or invalid examples>

Hank says that OP's theory that the clubface determines the starting direction of ball flight more so than the path of the club, is 

If Hank actually says this, I'd love to have the same discussion with him.  I think I could convince him that the ball leaves the face at 90* to the face plane at separation and that clubface rotation during compression affects ball spin and hence curvature in flight.  You, on the other hand, seem to be incapable of leaving an outmoded theory behind.  The earth is not flat. 

 


 

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